From a sincere woman who is fed up.
I work in a car dealership, a very male dominated industry, where women historically hold the jobs in accounting, reception and internet. I am a woman and a manager in the finance department, and work with all men in the finance and sales departments. It’s a position I work well in, not only because I do my job well, but because I don’t subscribe to the typical girly behavior and we all get along and have a fun time working together.
So the problem lies with my interactions with the woman-only accounting department and the women in reception and internet departments. They all seem to hate me and take every opportunity to “throw me under the bus,” talk behind my back, and give me unnecessary attitude whenever they can. I really try to maintain my composure and a clear head and not react to this negativity, but the pressure is mounting. It seems pretty clear to me that the negativity is coming from jealousy and/or envy from these other women. From their viewpoint, I’m sure it seems like I do a whole lot of nothing except hang out with the boys and joke around, and get paid well for it, while they hold hourly-wage positions that don’t leave a lot of room for fun. The truth is that they rarely, if ever, see the true contribution I make to the company. The sales department is either on or off, busy or bored, and we have to be available at all times for the customer whenever they may show up. We may not be constantly inputting data, counting receipts, or filing, but our presence at work is constantly required. And that’s what we get paid for too. If we’re working (selling cars) we’re getting paid, if not, we’re not. And we are paid well (respective to the current economic climate) for the risk of up or down sales that we take in our jobs.
Anyway, I’m in a situation where I am targeted, by people who are irrationally upset with me, for complaints and accusations that are unwarranted. Although I’d like to just ignore this behavior, I’m afraid that the growing resentment and rumors will spread to people who are just as irrational (our General Manager) and who react without ever attempting to get the whole story. It’s more of a guilty until proven innocent environment, if you’re even around long enough to defend yourself. I’d like to confront them, but I don’t want to start a war. Without reducing myself to the level of this kind of catty behavior, how should I deal with this kind of negativity around me?
Thank you for your continuing contribution to women in business.
Wow.
- Typical girly behavior?
- Innocent until proven guilty?
- Unwarranted accusations and complaints?
Your work environment sucks. Hardcore.
It’s safe to say that there’s a lack of leadership at your car dealership. Someone needs to be clear and call for an end to this catty behavior. Unfortunately, you’re not the one to provide that message. The people who need to deliver this message are the owners of the dealership and the general manager. This means that you have to get these men to see your point of view.
How do you do this? You appeal to the financial side of the business.
I’m reminded of the statement, “If you have time to lean, you have time to clean.” If women are being catty, they have too much time on their hands and they think it’s okay to behave like this. They may also be aggrieved and taking out their frustrations on you because you’re a much easier target than the boss. Talk to the leadership team at your dealership and let them know that this catty behavior reflects an opportunity to do things differently. You can challenge these women to work harder and put them on more important projects; you can ask these women to form a task force to address morale and issues in the workforce; or you can simply start to eliminate headcount.
I’m a big fan of giving women (and men) meaningful work so they don’t have time to be bitchy.
What do you guys think?
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I think that no matter what projects the company tries to implement, the problems will always be there. This is a culture issue, nothing more. The culture in this environment (and many others) needs to be revamped. In general, people like to bitch vs. doing things that will forward their career. It’s the main reason some never get ahead and then blame everyone else for their failures.
love ya, but reading THAT on a sat morning gave me a headache. i’m so glad i get to pick the people I work with…
I am with Amanda, i just took my migraine medicine…wow…i think male and female personalities at work are a little overstereotyped…that work place should be a tv sitcom on thursdays with the office and 30 rock…wow
-M
I feel for anyone who has to work amongst this sort of foolish drama, but I get very tired of hearing the stereotypes of “having all women in the office/dept always leads to more gossip and back-stabbing” etc. I’ve never found this to be true and in the past I worked at an org of 100 EEs with 85 females. Bad and ineffective leadership and crappy coworkers come in any gender
I have worked in cutthroat commission only sales environments as the sales manager where the overwhelming majority of sales people were male and the support staff female. For me what worked was spearheading the sales team in showing appreciation for the support staff. If management isn’t doing an effective job then shame on them, but, one does not have to be the manager to take the lead. It goes a long way to show those who rarely get the “glory” how much they are valued.
I agree with Robin and would like to add…I’ve worked in both major corp and smaller “fam” cultures. Both have had some degree of this very unprofessional behavior, of which both male and female have participated.
I believe it’s extremely important to identify the “energy vampires” immediately and do ones best to succeed in spite of the unhealthy behavior. It’s completely frustrating to know that projects, deliverables, daily productivity will be adversely affected as long as they’re involved.
If the behavior becomes hostile or harrassing…it’s extremely important to document, identify and report to HR as soon as possible. Leadership that refuses to manage to this kind of behavior will need to be held accountable immediately. It’s always amazing to me how often leadership “hates” to confront this kind of productivity drain…saying to subordinates – “work it out, you’re friends, right?”
So, from someone who’s been there…you have to trust yourself – believe in your work – and address accordingly. No One should have to dread going to work everyday because the “energy vampires” await you.
@David You call it a culture issue, I call it a leadership issue, but I think we’re driving towards the same thing: unacceptable behavior is tolerated. Unless it changes at the top, it probably won’t change.
@Amanda Word.
@MarkF In this reader’s opinion, the actions aren’t stereotyped. She’s honestly expressing how she feels. I will find a friend who works in a car dealership and ask if he can add some insight. Hold on.
@RobinS I’m not sure the writer was stereotyping. Or was she? Maybe my response is skewed — I’m a big fan of giving women (and men) meaningful work so they don’t have time to be bitchy. But if you have a gaggle of workers who gossip and they are women, do you ignore the gender component? Something to think about for me.
@Karla Thanks for your strong insight. Totally valued. This is an entirely new blog post, but let me ask: how many of us receive a pat on the back for a job well done? None of us. Appreciation is nice, and I think you’re right about the support staff needing praise — but how about some maturity? Personal story: I learned very early on that my administrative assistant LOVED her job, wanted to do good work, and hated it when I apologized for giving her the shitty tasks. I would always say, “I’m sorry…” and “Wow… you have a master’s degree and I’m asking you to do this shitty work. I’m sorry….” My condescending nature offended her — hard — because it was her job and she wanted to add value. Frankly, she wanted more work, less stupid praise (rah rah copies!), and less pity for doing the work that I had no time to do. She gave me feedback (and I cried) and I was like, whoa, really? I had no idea. Let me shut up, say thank you, and move on. I gave her more work so she could help me make the department better. I thought all support staff workers were embittered and wanted praise and a smidge of sympathy for earning $8/hr. They don’t. Most just want to do a good job, make a contribution, be recognized without a lot of hoopla, go home, and love their kids. It was a good lesson for me to learn very early in my career — and I think it ties back to this post. Give these women meaningful work and make sure there’s a zero-tolerance policy in place for catty behavior. It goes back to my original feeling behind this blog: do you job, go home, find meaning in other things. Diversify your life.
@Christina Good post. “Work it out, you’re friends, right?” All women in the workforce must be friends, right? Ugh. I hate that. Good call. I do feel for this women, but let me just say, in her opinion, there was a gender divide — and I think it’s important we recognize her perspective on this one. We don’t want to devalue this woman’s experience, either. There may indeed be a gender divide at her organization. Your advice is still appropriate, though!
As a retired car salesman, business manager,sales manager for a large auto group, I can tell you your experince is not unique. This is the case in most dealerships, and much worse in some (think requests for various sexual favors as regular watercooler talk). I really like Karla’s idea though. Spearhead the move that illuminates all the hard work the office does (an have no mistake, it is hard effing work dealing with car people). If you’re genuine in your appriciation it will show and your problem will be solved.
As far as going to ownership or the GM to resolve this, don’t. He’ll only see you as bringing another personnel problem to him that he doesn’t see as important. Trust me. It’s not worth the breath.
As always IMHO,
Sid.
From my cool ass iPhone too playa!
I have to tell you that my first instinct here is that she’s leaving out something. This gal sounds like one of those who always says, “I prefer to hang out with guys. I don’t get along with other women.” You have to wonder why?
Going over their head won’t solve this issue. It’ll it’ll shove it underground. Sounds like you’re making it work with the guys – and I’m sure they have their own set of gender-related quirks. Ask yourself what it would take to get along with the ladies here – and then do it.
@sid fuck these dealerships, yo. I’m ordering my next car from the internet. Also what if she went to the owner w solutions? Cost efficiency ideas? Is she still labelled a troublemaker?
@Xpert Email is always so incomplete, and maybe she is the problem by acting all manly and disrespecting the women in her office — but what if she’s right? If she’s wring, the market will take her queen bee ass out. If she’s right, I wanna give insight that might help.
I meant if she’s wrong. Stupid bberry thumbs!
From a friend.
“Honestly, the whole HR thing is lost on the car business. This is the only business I know of where managers can still get away with screaming at employees until they are red in the face with every insult and offensive comment they can conjure up, and suffer zero consequences. Just as if you work in a dealership and expect your mandatory hour lunch breaks or paid sick leave,you can forget it because it just doesn’t exist. as a woman in the car biz, if her concern is the cattyness of the female office workers she should feel lucky that is her only problem. There is sexual harassment in this business that goes beyond what my perverse and depraved mind can even imagine. If all she is worried about is a secretary calling her a bitch under her breath, she should suck it up and deal with it. She may think she is one of the guys, but I assure you she does not get teh shit end of teh guys stick with berating and such.”
1) The behaviour demonstrated by both men and women who have too much time on their hands and are doing jobs they don’t enjoy and resent others who are successful and in jobs they enjoy.
2) It is the job of management to make sure that their staff is motivated, working hard & working in a good environment. If they encourage this type of culture/environment by participating in the gossip and not addressing inefficiencies then no number of complaints is going to give them the knowledge they need to do a better job of managing.
3) If I were this woman I would be happy that I enjoy my job, my co-workers, my success and stop focusing on the negativity or reacting to it. If I really felt that I needed to make a difference then maybe I’d just put a suggeston in to increase management training.
It’s up to management to set a ‘zero tolerance for gossip’ standard. To your friend’s point about HR being lost in a dealership environment – I’m guessing that Cro Magnon thinking is why I’ve never been interested in the auto industry.
If it were me, I’d be the first to extend my hand in friendship – and those who didn’t take the laurel and persisted in catty behavior would be the first to go in the next round of lay-offs.
I don’t know, Marsha, I resist the idea that you should have to be friends with coworkers if you want them to be professional and do a good job. Honey, flies, vinegar, sure, but why should it be her responsibility to be friends? She’s a manager, and she should be talking to the people who are managing the accounting, internet, and reception areas about options and solutions to improve the general work environment and morale – this something that they all, as managers, should be dealing with together regularly anyway.
And if it’s the managers of those departments that are setting the tone, she needs to lay it on the line to them that current lines of communication aren’t working, and that is hurting the ability of the finance department to do its job bringing in the money. And challenge them to come up with some solutions together.
There have been some great suggestions and ideas here.
The problem, though, is that car dealerships are truly the Land That Time Forgot. I am sorry if anyone’s offended or if I’m painting every dealership with too broad a brush, but little in the setup (management, workflow, efficiency) has changed since the 50s.
Dealerships are often family-owned and run businesses, and as such they tend to avoid outside feedback and pesky things like HR. It’s a situation of I say, you play (with extremely low pay!)
My take is this: I think the support staff/secretaries et al probably feel shitty, angry and annoyed at ALL of the sales staff.
The letter writer sees it as a woman vs woman thing. I think gender does come into play, but in a different way.
These woman may feel compelled, if not required, to bite the bullet and put on a happy face for the guys. But for another woman, they may not feel the pressure to put on that mask.
Which in the big scheme of things, all leads back to where Laurie (and others) have suggested. Processes that suck need to change or die. Workers that suck energy and innovation from the task at hand either need to come to Jesus or hit the road. That kind of direction needs to come from management. If they’re unaware or uninterested in changing, it’s time to find a new gig.
Bitches.
Just catch one alone in the bathroom and punch her in the throat, it will send a message to the masses.
(It’s Saturday and I have been watching a lot of TV….)
Having recently left a company with a very unfortunate culture, riddled with negativity, passive aggressive behavior, and gossip, I’ve thought alot about this from both a personal viewpoint and that of overall corporate health. I don’t believe the negativity and gossip survive without a willing audience. The audience provides the fuel for the fire. The combined voice is louder and the individuals themselves spread the risk since there is strength in numbers (a few might be wrong, but many can’t all be wrong). My personal feeling is that these people talk about others due to some insecurity and hope to find others like them who are also insecure and willing to validate them. Their careers have stalled. What else can they do?
At some point, it gets too big for management to alter without long-term planning and committment (and probably money) to the culture change. Any attempt at immediate fix is a move by “the Man” and will just bounce off. Sure, you want to systematically remove the bad apples, but that is difficult unless there is something concrete or it is accompanied by other performance issues. The truly unfortunate thing is that most companies will allow (and perhaps even reward) average performance. Nobody is expected to reach and so they do not. There is no turnover, just festering. If layoffs do happen, it is only to remove the newbies with no experience and the seniors who have accumulated so many years of 3% cost of living increases that they become an issue of salary compression. Sure as hell won’t promote them, but can’t pay them in the 99 percentile for their position either. Whoever is left just keeps festering on the new audience. Rinse and repeat. HR has a big responsibility here with best practices in performance management and comp strategy in addition to the change management related to culture. However, HR doesn’t have a prayer if they don’t have the public support of management reinforcing culture, mission, values, and condemning specific behaviors.
If the company doesn’t commit to change in a wholistic fashion, I think it should be viewed as a temporary stopover. If you need to stick around a while, don’t lose your priciples or your drive. They may bad mouth you for both, but what of that will bother you anyway?
I have to say that I’m very suspicious when any women says that all other female employees are jealous of her. Anytime I’ve heard this complaint from an employee, it always turns out to be a much bigger story in which the one complaining is equally culpable in the situation.
I’m the first admit that women can be extremely catty and tear each other up, and certainly being the only female manager makes one an easy target. But the specific assertion of jealousy sends up all sorts of red flags for me.
I’m also curious what she defines as “typical girly behavior.” If she believes this behavior to be beneath her, her female co-workers are absolutely picking up that vibe.
It sounds to me that the managers/owners honestly won’t give a crap about the salespeople. If that’s true, would they feel the same with the regular staff? If so, who gives a damn what they think? I’d just rub it in and talk about how I love my job so much, and how I’m going on luxury cruises/vacations/buying new electronics/etc. but that’s only because I’m a catty bitch…
I don’t know that this is a female thing as much as it is a money thing. My cousin owns a hair salon. She employs female stylists (my cousin is also a stylist) whom she pays an hourly wage. The stylists whine because my cousin makes all the profits.
She tells them if they want to make the big bucks, they can invest their money to rent a space, pay the utilities, buy the supplies, do the marketing and pay their wages, even when there are no customers. Yeah, baby, that’s capitalism. She takes the losses and she takes the profits so shut up.
This reminds me of the teachers who want engineer’s pay while keeping teacher’s hours. The women who work in reception are happy to have 9-5 hours but want the money that comes with sales. You can’t have it both ways. If you want that income, you have to put in the work that goes with it.
Sounds like workplace bullying and mobbing to me. Some states have laws against this type of behavior.
She shouldn’t do anything— and go hardcore paperwork on these b*tches when there’s anything that remotely seen as slanderous on her character or work. The girly-girls will be shell-shocked– and gun-shy next time they try to pull any shenanigans, believe me. She’s just too chicken-shit to pull the trigger.
It sounds like this is a company/department culture issue and there may not be much you can do about it if it is deeply ingrained. I think you should evaluate your reasons for working for the company and where you would like to be a year or 5 years from now. If these women are important to your goals (hopefully not), then you may need to reach out to them. Otherwise, ignore them and read a good business book at lunchtime!
@Laurie Yeah, she can step up with all that. You would think they’d be happy someone is coming to them with ideas about how to run their business better, more efficient, more profitably. Nope. The “We’ve always done it this way” syndrome will dominate.
BTW, your “friend” has it spot on. Whoever he/she is has a great deal of insight into the business & how it operates. Why they scared to post? Step up playa!
Sid.
The woman who wrote the letter sounds like trouble. I am in the admin department at a car dealership, and all of our administrative staff is female – both in accounting and service departments. Our finance staff, which is part of the Sales department is also all female. The behavior here at our dealership, while it can be a bit gossipy, is not often catty or outright mean. I believe that the problem is with the person who wrote the letter. What is she resentful about? We here in admin, while we are jealous of the money that our Finance Managers and some sales consultants make, aren’t willing to do the work that would get us there. Acutally, that was poorly worded – not that we’re not willing to do the work that would get us there, it mostly comes down to the working hours. We don’t want to work nights and weekends. We like M-F 8-5 – we have chosen this as our career paths. If we wanted to move into sales or finance we probably could. The woman who had my job before me transferred to Finance and is very happy with her choice.
All I thought when reading the letter from this post was “look at me, I’m being picked on, someone pay attention!” And no offense Laurie, but in my opinion, you lapped it up. Whether you bought her story or not, I really like your column – keep up the good work!