From a reader named Sty.
I’m curious about your thoughts on staying punk while trying to have a grown-up job. I’m sure you get this question a lot, and you may or may not have answered it before… but I feel like a freaking sellout since I got an office job, however I have to pay the rent and take care of essentials. Short of knocking over liquor stores on a regular basis, I don’t see how this is possible. What can I do? How can I convince myself that I’m not completely selling out? I mean, I use the extra money I have (if I have it) to work on my art, my music, and the occasional writing, but I would just love to get out of this white-collar b.s. And so would some of my other friends. What do you think?
I think you are an adult. Adults work. That’s what we do. You haven’t sold out. You’ve grown up.
No good comes from poverty, and America’s rich tradition of public museums, libraries and parks have been funded by hardcore capitalists. Thank god there are people out there who went to work in oil, railroads and steel. We have great gardens and universities because of those cut-throat SOBs.
Work your 9-5 job and take comfort that you know enough about yourself to realize that it’s just a job. You have more self-awareness than most people who slog through their lives ascribing meaning to careers that never quite meet expectations.
So my advice? Go to work. Pay your bills. Shop locally. Don’t buy stuff you don’t need. You can’t support local musicians and artists if you can’t pay your rent.
{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }
Amen.
You’re not a sellout. You’re a human. Humans have to eat. Jobs give you food so you can eat. How is that selling out?
Get your direct deposit every two weeks so you can go out and have a life. The job isn’t who you are. It’s a means to an end.
Poor people can’t be punk rock. They can’t afford it.
I worked my ass off in corporate land so that I could have enough money to eventually do something I liked instead. It worked. I don’t feel like I sold out—I feel like I won.
What I’m most curious about is do you still listen to Punk Rock, and if so, who is your favorite Punk Rock band?
I think there is a big difference between working your way through the corporate world and espousing corporate bull. You are who you are, nothing can change that and yes sometimes work can contradict with this, but accepting that and getting on with it is part of being true to who you are.
I grew up a socialist (I know some people will find that a dirty word round here) and I still am a socialist. But at the same time I’m an HR Director and sometimes that means doing things like busting a Union. I don’t do it because I like it. In fact I will probably have gone 10 steps further than most to avoid it. But given a choice between putting food in my kids mouths or contradicting my value set. There is only one choice.
Dude,
Its all a frame of mind. You work so you can play. But keep it real simple so you are not a slave to your bills. This is the path to freedom. And freedom is what punk rock is all about.
Just remember, in the famous words of Fugazi,
“You can’t be what you were
You have to be what you are
You can’t be what you were
Time is now and it’s running out”
You know what’s MORE lame than selling out? Selling out and pretending that your Top Ramen days were “the real you.” Do what interests you, listen to the music that interests you, be yourself, not the Alt-Rock equivalent of a 60-year-old still talking about Woodstock. Money and achievement are A-okay, and getting older is A-okay too. Enjoy it.
A lot of this depends on your vision of punk. I’ve always been more of the Ian MacKaye/Fugazi/DIY school of punk. That means I work. I accomplish things. I’m allowed to feel a sense of accomplishment. If I were more of the nihilistic, Sex Pistols kind of punk maybe I’d have a hard time resolving the fact that I work for a living, have a family, etc.
At this point in my life I don’t try to pretend that I’m a purist either. I’ve “gone along to get along” at times in my career. I’ve worked for assholes without doing anything about it. But I’ve tried to remain true to my ideals of being honest, being fair, and treating people with respect.
Getting old sucks and at some point in your life unless you’re Thurston Moore you look stupid as a adult dressed in a band Tshirt, chucks and ripped jeans. You become the creepy old guy at the club, which is never cool. Figure out what’s important to you and do it. And while you’re at it, watch SLC Punk — pretty good movie if not a bit preachy.
DanFlan is the MAN! Well said.
The HRD: If you’re a socialist and you’re busing unions, you’ve sold out. Sorry.
(busting. Bussing is OK.)
How is being independent selling out? You know what’s selling out? Twenty somethings (or even older somethings) who mooch off their parents instead of getting jobs. Count yourself totally punk for actually being your own person and not letting mommy and daddy pay the bills.
Others have addressed this point much better than I can, but this post reminded me of something that happened earlier this week. A younger guy (high school age) got on the bus. He had this fairly awesome mohawk but gave all of us charged looks of disdain as though he were the true punk and rebel. Dude. I used to have purple hair, too, way back in the day. The real skill is learning to be punk in actions that truly affect people’s lives, even in small ways. (Like putting your foot down when the CEO wants to schedule team building brown bags.) Just because you’re in the system doesn’t mean you’re not punk. Once you learn how the system functions and how to work it and – better yet – change it, you have the potential to be a total corporate badass.
@Renee – Happy to discuss why you think this way, I know it seems hypocritical, but what about the Doctors that can provide treatment to people they see who need help, the Lawyers who put away people that should be given support, the Teachers that don’t have time to help a kid that needs extra tuition. Have we all sold out? Or is it easier to pick on those of us in the private sector as being without soul. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
It’s about attitude. I’m a middle aged, senior HR exec with one of the most establishment organisations you could wish to work for. But I’ve always kept my punk ideals – I still listen to the music, I go to football and scream my head off and I don’t ever try to be anything I’m not. I don’t conform to anyone’s view of what I’m supposed to be and I try and keep my inner kid at the forefront of my life.
I’m with H Aria – Just because you’re in the system doesn’t mean you’re not punk. You can still live your life with your punk ideas and that to me is not selling out. Change from within in a subversive way is much more punk than a 40 year old in a Sex Pistols T-shirt. Challenge and be challenged. Make a difference. There’s a lot of fun to be had being a corporate badass.
I published this letter because it was so timely. I was accosted by at guy at ERE Expo who was like, “You’re not punk rock. You’re sweet and you wear nice clothes.” I’m like, “You’re not the arbiter of punk rock. Go away.”
@Kerry Thank you. Exactly. I don’t know why I write this blog because you just get it. You can’t opt out of the middle-class if you’re not even middle-class.
@Ben G Me or Sty? How do you define ‘being punk rock’? Is it music, an attitude, or something else?
@TheHRD Feed your family. The survival of the next generation of HRDs means that they can make more progress. It’s a long, hard slog through the history of time. You’re doing it right.
@Daisycutter Thank you. Precisely.
@FrannyO You can rock out to Fugazi on my blog A N Y T I M E.
@DanFlan A lot of my friends look to Leonard Cohen as they get older — a musical way to balance the pain in life and the need to create art. He kind of creeps me out, though.
@Renee Oh c’mon. Really?
@H Aria I want business cards that say, “Laurie Ruettimann: Corporate Badass.”
@NZHR You know what I love about you? You’ve done it. You know how to balance your inner-freak with the need to make money and be a capitalist. We need you to make us a flowchart so we can follow your path.
Yes, really!
For one thing, union-busting does not equate to representing the accused in a court of law, it does not equate to asking for money for your medical services, and it does not equate to giving additional personal time or your own money to needy kids above and beyond your classroom duties. Union-busting equates better to being a mob lawyer, a chop-shop doctor, or an abusive and authoritarian teacher: as in, these extremes are possible within the profession in question, but are not morally cool because they disrespect the individual patient/student/client at a fundamental level and deal with them as commodities.
There’s no shame in representing an employers’ interests at the bargaining table. It’s incredibly important. But setting out to purposely destroy (that’s how I read the term “busting”) an organization that your employees have chosen to join to represent their interests at said table, as a group, can in no way be termed a “socialist” action. It’s not even really a capitalist one.
At at the most basic level, HR’s job isn’t to enforce an employer’s ideological agenda, even one that says that a certain type of relationship between employer and employee is OK but another kind is verboten. Its job is to work with the relationship that exists – be it collective or not – and make it a successful one. I’m aware that not all unions are great, just as I’m aware that not all employers are fair and reasonable, but just as communism isn’t the general answer to that specific complaint, neither is union-busting.
The HRD’s soul has now left the building.
Love the Fugazi references! Fugazi & The Clash are the 2 greatest punk bands ever IMO.
Laurie – Punk rock can mean alot of different things. For an individual, it is their state of mind. A irreverance for the status quo. A comfort for being different, edgy, willing to push the boundries of conventional thought and structure. For the world at large though, it’s often a mohawk, spiked bracelets, leather, ripped jeans and piercings.
My question was serious though. Who is your favorite punk band. I know you like the Beasties, and although not a true punk band, they have done some great punk songs over the years.
Great advice. What I would also say is to use the job as fuel for your art. Stress can be fuel for terrific creativity.
Don’t stay true to the “scene”, stay true to yourself, Sty.
I’m guessing Sty is a young’un. Because I asked myself the same question in my teens back in the 80’s. Now that I’m 40, I feel pretty danged proud of myself for working all those hard and sometimes soul-sucking jobs in order to stay true to what I really want to do, and that is art and design. I keep a simple, moderate lifestyle, I don’t buy a lot of crap I don’t need, I love my friends and family, and even though my current job isn’t the ultimate dream, I still like it because it’s interesting and I’m good at it.
Being into punk all my life taught me a few things, and that is punks LOVE to talk about what it means to be punk. Endlessly. Like beating a dead, leather and spike jacketed horse. If there is one thing punk rock SHOULD really have taught us, is that you think for yourself and do for yourself. That is not a philosophy that cozies up to Socialism, it’s a very Capitalist notion. Capitalists get up each day and make things happen. They work hard. You can be a New Capitalist that is mindful of the planet and creates good things for people, you don’t have to sell your soul or ruin others. If you hate your job now, the “system” we so love to bash offers you alternatives (albeit less so today, but someday this will change), so you can look into a new career path that truly rewards you.
Think of a guy like Greg Graffin from Bad Religion. He started one of the best West Coast bands ever, and now he’s a Professor at Cornell, and he still is in BR and does solo stuff to boot. Or Mike McColgan, ex-singer of the Dropkick Murphys and now Street Dogs. He was a soldier in the Gulf War and became a Boston fireman, and he comes from a proud family and neighborhood of hard workers (which I identify with completely, being from Boston and a working class family.)
You know, it’s one thing to be a dirty gutter punk sitting in the streets begging for money while you sport $200 20 hole Doc Martens. Or, you can have some pride and work hard. Work towards what you love, always, and you will eventually get closer. And THAT is not selling out.
@Kristin You just wrote a PhD thesis on what it means to be punk. Thank you.
@David Great art comes from great pain, right?
@Ben G My musical tastes span the early punk movement (thanks to my parent’s choice of tunes) to soft new wave and Roxy Music to the 90s industrial movement to grunge to something as silly as an addiction to Green Day. On my iTunes list? Everything from The Pretenders, The Clash, Blondie, Iggy, NY Dolls, Adam Ant, ABC, XTC, New Order, Ministry, Yaz, Cure, old Motown artists, 50 Cent & Jay Z (because I’m white), Elvis Costello, Revolting Cocks, Thrill Kill Kult, Fugazi, Dead Kennedys, Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, Rosemary Clooney, Johnny Mathis, Green Day, Perry Como, NIN, Psych Furs, Erasure, Depeche Mode, Morrissey/Smiths, Tom Jones, etc. I could go on & on — and that’s not even really modern music that I enjoy, today. So it’s eclectic to say the least, and I’m watching more TV and listening to political shows via Sirius in my car than I am listening to music. Oy! Not enough hours in the day.
To quote the venerable Pam Slim, all work is honorable. I use my corporate paycheck to support local music, local sustainable farming, other local businesses, solopreneurs who provide kick-ass goods and services, and amazing etsy artisans. My check also pays the mortgage, so my husband can work in the community mental health sector to help the most needy of our community members, for very little pay. Not that I don’t love to rage against the machine
But I also need to have integrity to earn my paycheck and do good work for the organization that provides it to me, until the time I decide to do something else. Thanks for the kickstart on a Monday!
@ DanFlan – great movie I just watched it with my daughter who is a punk herself.
@Kristin – I am sending your response to my daughter I hope you don’t mind.
On a sad note, Jim Carroll the poet punk passed away 9-11-09 RIP.
@Laurie. Right. I have been through hell and back this year and have discovered that I am a poet and writer; at least in my own mind for now. But what a great healing mechinism it has been!
Can you spell Rash-en-el-i-zation? (I can’t) Sounds like a bunch of rationalizing going on here. Either you’re a punk or you’re not. If you work in HR, you’re not punk. You’re just not. Period.
However, I am a Christian on Easter and Christmas.
She needs to get a better job– somewhere in the creative field– graphic design for a skate board company– GD for a T-shirt factory? Roadie for a rock band- punk band?? Those are cool– you work– and don’t feel TOTALLY like you’ve sold out. Call around— there’s a “cool” job out there— I can feel it!!!
But soooooory— to a true punk nihilist– doing anything but listening to the Misfits and Dead Kennedy’s — gettin’ high on whatever– telling the establishmant “F*ck the F*ck Off!!!! and shitting on your neighbors lawn– is selling out. –i’m just sayin–
I am a punk that morphed into a goth. I am also an artist and in HR. It’s been a long and crazy road. At times I feel like I am too much of a socialist democrat to be in this position. I do like the company I work for though, as they are fairly socially conscious. That being said we still have our issues, as any company does. My boss and I clash over things where I can see too many sides to issues. I tend to take the side of the misfits. Misfits are great workers. They just interpret things differently, and I get that. It gets depressing knowing I can only do so much, but I know that I have to keep voicing my opinions on what I think is fair. No one else will (voice opinions) because they feel it falls on deaf ears, which isn’t totally true. So I take on the task of being the voice of the non-management employees. My punk side encourages employees to voice their feelings about important issues. That, in itself, is a tough task. It’s hard to get people to question things and show their views to management.
I have a hard time with this “selling out” notion. I don’t think bands sell out when they sell their music to television shows or commercials. It might be a good way of getting their music to people that might not otherwise be exposed to it. Artists, musicians, writers, actors, dancers, etc are not immune to disease and need health insurance like anyone else. We have to work to get health insurance or the money to purchase it. I don’t consider trying to be healthy selling out. I think many creative people end up with office jobs because they have a strong attention to detail. At my place of employment we have many employees who are in bands or write or design clothes or paint. Our jobs allow us the funds to continue to do these things, even if it shortens the amount of time we have to do them. I have learned the hard way that everything in life is a fine balance. Maybe selling out is when things are terribly out of balance. Which sounds like what we are all getting at in these posts.
@ JoesGarage- Have you ever heard of subverting from the inside? Be the change you wish to see.
@ HR-Hooligan- Goth-punks represent!
@JohnC Really? Cool.
@Laurie You’re welcome!
@Joe’sGarage Maybe typical, boring HR ain’t punk, but Laurie’s HR sure is.
@MattyMatt I never was much of a Nihilist. Maybe that’s why I prefer straightedge style hardcore and oi. But, my neighbors, they sure are asking for a nice turd blossom, those wankers.
@KRisty Good comment. You are an example of keeping it real.
@JohnC I know, very sad.
@David Exactly. We’re all poets and artists.
@Joe Ach, whatevs.
@MattyMat This is why most true punk kids are just that — punks who die early. Darwinism.
@HR Hooligan Totally well said. Thank you.
@Magpie Very Gandhi of you. I agree.
@Laurie Have come close many times. People don’t decide to love punk because it’s chock full of cute bunny rabbit’s and kittens that lick your nose— we’re in it cause we”re Angry!!! Angry at family, at the establishment, at anal, hypocritical social morays, at the cops— at that dickhead who keeps telling you to turn it down or he’s calling the cops (hence– shitting on thy neighbors lawn)– and all the time, you’re wanting to escape the anger with whatever you can get your hands on, Sid & Nancy style!!
@ Laurie & Kristen – and nothing’s more punk rock nihilist than waking up crumpled in an alley in San Bernadino of all places and not knowing how the Hell you got there!!! (deKooning was notorious for doing that in NY) — but I still had my wallet! Or waking up on some spanish guys lawn not knowing what the hell he’s talking about– finding out you urinated all over yourself— or waking up out of an Everclear blackout crashing your car while listening to Throbbing Gristle Heathen Earth in the middle of downtown Los Angeles—etc. etc. etc. Now that’s Punk, babay!!!!! lol
(disclaimer: no one was hurt in the making of this story.)
I saw this linked today and have a different perspective. Unless you’re a fireman, astronaut, bounty hunter, or vampire slayer, you sold out. Those were the jobs that we wanted when we were kids and the most innocent. No one grew up wanting to work in HR, have a mohawk, be punk rock, socialist, nihilist, recruiter, etc.
Since we all sold out a long time ago, debating about whether we sold out with careers is a moot point. We’ll just keep on moving on.