I received this note from HR Puke!
I wanted some advice for a mid-40′s professional who has worked hard to become the lead HR professional (VP / Sr. Mgr. etc.) in various organizations.
Now, I’m like everyone else — out of a job. I have great skills, ideas, dislike most HR people, etc. but don’t have my bachelor’s degree (been degree seeking for 17 years). I worked my way up, used my mentors, raised a family, yadda, yadda, and put school way on the back burner for lack of time.
From your perspective, how do I overcome this during the initial resume submission stage?
Rock on.
Pukey, I hate to tell you this, but VPs of Human Resources have degrees. They are degreed from local colleges, ivy league colleges, and state schools. I know some who are degreed from places like Davenport and University of Phoenix. Very few make it to the top without the degree. Very few stay on top without it, either.
One of the fastest growing groups in college are women, over 50, who are returning to school. Use your unemployment as an opportunity to go back to school and finish the degree you’ve been seeking for seventeen years. It’s time. You’ll meet new people, connect with a new network of colleagues, and you might be able to receive enough financial aid so that you can focus on school and pay some of your basic bills.
Tell prospective employers, “I worked my way up, learned from my mentors, raised a family, and now I’m returning to finish my undergraduate degree.”
Makes you look tough, scrappy, and not afraid to work hard.
So start looking into fast ways to finish your degree. You will end up with skills that will carry you beyond HR.
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{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }
I know I’m in the minority on this and that many/most employers disagree with me, but I’ve never been able to understand why it is that you can get into your 40s or beyond with a really impressive slate of professional achievements and results, and yet employers will still want to see a degree. Whether or not you did an intensive study of the work of Jane Austen when you were 20 (English major here) just doesn’t seem relevant, when you have 20 years worth of professional success. You’ve already proved you can do the job really well; the degree seems irrelevant to me at that stage.
I know there are lots of theories about how a degree shows you can stick with something, etc., but surely an impressive 20-year job history shows that and much more.
I know I’m not typical in thinking this and so therefore the advice to return to school might be the best thing for her, but I really wonder if degree requirements for people with experience under their belts are outdated and we should evolve beyond them.
You tell the unvarnished truth Laurie. It might not be fair to the HR pro that has years of successful experience and achievements but it is the reality.
If you don’t have the ability to go back to college for whatever reasons, another route to explore might be with smaller companies. They usually have more flexible requirements for educational background. The HR function in a smaller company is sometimes more broad ranging in terms of responsibilities than large corporate environments but admittedly doesn’t offer the upward mobility.
You know, it can even boil down to the simple reason of why not? Why not require a degree? When I start a search for an open role, and I get 100-200 responses in two days…why not state that the job is degree-required? Helps me take 200 resumes down to a manageable 30-50. And at that point, I start looking at relevant experience. The degree? That is simply a hurdle to pass as I begin dialing down the number of applicants. I do not intend to be mean about it, but if I have 10 people with great experience and degrees, and 10 others who have great experience and no degrees…well, it is a no brainer.
My staffing-process-efficiencies aside, I really do think that a great deal is obtained from the undergraduate experience of pursuing a traditional 4 year college degree. Look, I come from a long line of West-Virginia coal miners…my brother and I were the first ones ever in our extended family, over generations, to go to college, so there is no thread of wealth flowing through these veins of mine. I’m not advocating for the Elites (took me 6 years of service in the USMC to even be able to pay for school). All I can say is that college matters. Completing a 4-year degree matters. Statistically, it lengthens your life, elevates your earning potential, opens your mind, etc. The only people I have ever heard say that it does not matter are those who do not have degrees.
I personally would rather have someone with 20 years of good experience and a proven track record than someone with a degree and minimal/iffy experience. But like Fran said, it’s the truth; companies are looking at degrees. You might be able to negotiate completion of a degree into a job offer though if you are close to completion. Find a smaller company that offers tuition reimbursement and agree to finish your degree while working diligently as the best HR exec they’ve ever seen.
So, I rarely disagree with Laurie. I’m smart that way. And I agree that many employers look for degrees now since it’s a buyers market, and why not? But as a hiring manager, who looks for evidence of results, innovation, strategic thinking, courage, and brilliant people management/leadership skills, a degree has been secondary sometimes. If they’ve demonstrated — through evidence — the kinds of results I described above and they don’t have a degree, we talk about it. And it’s almost always the result of financial and family issues when they were of traditional college age. And if they’ve got an SPHR, GPHR, PHR (or other relevant certification) then the lack of degree is less concerning to me. But it’s all about results. Frankly, I’ve known, worked with, and/or worked for people with degrees from very impressive institutions who couldn’t lead their way out of a paper bag! And I suspect you have too. So for me, the issue is always about what can you do, what results can you produce, how do you lead and develop a team, and can I trust you? If a non-degreed candidate looks better on those benchmarks than a degreed candidate, guess who gets the offer?
When filling HR positions at my office (anything from a Coordinaors to Generalist to Mangers), many clients specify what degree would be appropriate for the position. Many wouldn’t accept a BA in English or Anthropolgy; rather we come up with a list of appropriate areas – Human Resource Management, Business Administration with an emphasis in HR, Industrial Psychology are some examples of the degree requirements that we see on a regular basis.
Unfortunately in the St. Louis area, there are many schools that offer a M.A. in Human Resources, yet there are no pre-requisite work requirements for the program. I regularly run into candidates who have no prior HR experience who are now “Masters” in the field and expect to be offered top-level positions at top-level pay. Come on!
There’s something to be said for a person who has successfully worked 20 years in their field – yet, most employers are requiring a degree. I would recommend that HR Puke (great name!) look into an affordable program that relates directly to HR and has a success rate of helping graduates find employment upon graduation. Although basket weaving or phrenology are fun electives, taking mostly HR core courses would probably be helpful…even if it’s just a review of what you already know! There might also be employers out there would would offer to pay a certain % towards tuition upon completion of a certain trial period or with the grade of an A or B in the class.
Good luck!
Just a quick follow up to my post of a few minutes ago, mostly because I can see where this discussion is likely headed. I see us discussing two types of people:
“Person A” does not have a degree, but possesses 10 years of hard, cold, practical experience delivering real results.
“Person B” has a degree, and only a few years of very light experience.
In this scenario, I, too, would select Person A…if these were my only two choices. However, I do not think life is hardly every this black and white. I usually always have the capacity to select from a third group of people, and I will call that group “Person C.”
“Person C” has a relevant 4-year degree AND 10+ years of hard, cold, practical experience delivering real results. So for the record, Person C is who I pick, and there are lots of ‘em.
I have a degree. However, it’s not the RIGHT degree (e.g., a Master’s — in ANYTHING) that the sort of employer I’ve been pursuing keeps asking for. Not that it makes any sense whatsoever.
E.G: most recently, I was turned down for a writing job, despite my BA in English and 20+ years of professional writing experience, in favor of a more freshly-minted young person with a brand new Masters degree — IN LEISURE STUDIES. (Not that there’s anything wrong with Leisure Studies, whatever the hell it is. But for a writing job?)
What I’m saying is that while I agree utterly with Alison (above) that meaningless degrees are meaningless, this is not a fight we’ve won yet. Degrees still matter for many professions. Even if a person is fully qualified via experience, etc., not every company will feel comfortable with a high-profile employee who lacks the standard, recognizable certification that a degree represents.
So yeah, finish the degree. If the subject matter and rigor matter less than the letters “B.A.” on your resume, then get the cheapest, quickest degree you can and get it over with. (NB: I still believe the ROI on a good liberal arts BA for a younger, less-experienced person is generally a good one, however. Never hurts to learn how to think and write.)
Another vote for get the degree. At the level you’re aiming to work, many of the people you’re competing with will have completed their MBAs at this point. You might be awesome, but this is a serious limitation.
Hmmm, This might be the best way to improve the personality of a person and to have the ability to be employed, to have work, to gain knowledge for the shake of their family.
Even they are not degree they can have the opportunity and chances to take or finish it.
I am with Laurie on this one, In my company 4 yr degrees are needed to advance into senior mgmt…not just VP’s but one level down. Yes there are a couple without (they are grandfathered in)…the bars are higher, the competion fiercer.
I have to disagree with China on this one…put 100 Heads of HR in a room and 99 of them have at least a 4yr degree…want to roll the dice go to Las Vegas, want to advance quickly – get back in school quick and bide your time as a consultant till you finish-
good luck!
M
Get the degree. We can debate ’til the cows come home whether that’s fair or not, but the reality is that you need a degree in the eyes of people doing the hiring. (And face it, many uber-educated CEO’s love to chat about theory and analysis; I invoke college references all the time at my job just for schmoozy conversation’s sake, and I graduated college 18 years ago).
It’s just like corporate politics. You can be upset all you want at unfair politics in the workplace, but that’s the real world, so you gotta learn the system and capitalize on what you’ve learned (and then, hopefully, shake it up).
I work in IT – and I’d have to say, the majority of requirements state “Degree, or relevant work experience.” because the positions are very technical and experience is paramount to anything else. I’ve also found that hiring managers “requiring” a degree tended to be a little on the elitest side– especially if it’s for a lower level position. Upper level? Different story. And I have a degree in the fine arts– does that qualify me later on as being “degreed” for a HR/Recruiter position?? It’s subjective judgement on the hiring manager/HR personnel’s part.
btw— my last boss had a Bachelor’s degree in Business Management from USC– one of the best business schools in the country— and this guy couldn’t find his ass with both hands!! If anything– he had “reverse Midas Touch” — everything he touched was guarenteed to be destroyed in no time!! It was a family business– so they covered for him constantly, saying “chuckle-chuckle! That’s just little Nicky– he does that sorta thing!!”
Sorry– position experience and decent references are good enough for me.
I was in college for 2 years then stopped to raise a family. I made a career change at 31 from financial services to HR. Im now 40 and worked my way up to be a high-performing, sr HR manager at a Fortune 500 company. I was able to do this without an undergrad degree by ultizing mentors, getting quick hits of functional knowledge with ANY training opportunity I could find (PHR, HR management certificate program, short seminars, etc.) and plain ol pulling up my bootstraps. I knew from the beginning that I would only get “so” far till the degree became a factor. The feedback I’ve received from my leaders is that I can likely move up one more level within my company without the degree as I’ve proven that I can kick ass, but if I want to control my destiny and move up even higher or out to another company that piece of paper is a requirement. My competition has at least the undergrad degree and often more. I’ve been back at school while working full time for the last 18 months and will finish my BS in Business Administration with an emphasis in HR Management. Let me keep it real by stating it is a time suck. However, the school work isn’t difficult and Im able to leverage my real life experience for each class which has resulted in getting pretty good grades. My recommendation: utilize your time management skills and the financial assistance that exists out there to bang it out!
In the midst of this year’s spring/summer layoffs the ranks of grass roots senior level HRprofessionals has grown.
As we discuss possiblities I question why hadn’t they hadn’t increased, enhanced education and skills.
My comments are not meant to be disrespectful; a majority of these folks built hr departments from the ground up. They grew with their companies, legislation, rules, processes, procedures and for the most part have an unsurpassable wealth of knowledge.
However; many of us worked, had families, went to school at night (no online classes back then) became certified and completed our degrees.
In the midst of this year’s spring/summer layoffs the ranks of grass roots senior level hr professionals has grown.
My comments are not meant to be disrespectful; a majority of these folks built hr departments from the ground up. They grew with their companies, legislation, rules, processes, procedures and for the most part have an unsurpassable wealth of knowledge.
While I agree to some extent experience and proven, quantifiable results should be considered I question the lack of personal growth and professional investment in one’s future.
HR Puke – You can not overcome this, especially in this economy. Get the degree. Honestly, with your experience any degree would help. Dale is right, the degree requirement is a screening out mechanism. When you get hundreds of applicants for every open position from many very qualified candidates why wouldn’t you select candidates with both the degree and experience?
My advice is enroll in school asap (even an on-line or evening program). Then you can at least show that you are working toward earning the degree while still looking for your next opportunity. Good luck!
Just a thought: why does the company (or companies) require a degree? Is it material to the position? Is it a quantifiable success factor for the role?
The concern can often be argued that if it is not an indicator of success or performance, then is the degree requirment being used to exclude any groups of potential employees (re: the high school diploma requirement issue in Griggs v Duke Energy ’71).
I think companies can generally justify the degree requirements by falling back on the “financial” management argument, however then should they specify particular degrees (I worked for an awesome VP of HR who was a Journalism/Theater major)?
Our company has an actual policy that trades two years of experience for one year of post secondary education. That allows us to hire the best people based on performance and results.
Sorry for getting so pedantic, but early today I did declare it pedantic Wednesday.
I’m not disagreeing that a degree is a good idea because many employers want to see one. But I AM questioning whether, as employers, that’s the right perspective for us to have. I think we should focus on the person’s track record of achievements and results — is anyone really arguing that it’s truly relevant whether a 45-year-old professional at the top of her game in terms of achievements spent four years studying obscure authors 25 years earlier? (Again, using my English major as the example.)
To repeat, I’m not talking about what’s done/what’s expected. But I’m asking if it SHOULD be that way. I think it shouldn’t.
There are arguments on both sides. If choosing between two neck-and-neck candidates, a degree could be the deciding factor, especially if it’s relevant. On the other hand, I would go with the perfect candidate sans degree rather than a good candidate with a BS. And depending on the position, I might prefer someone who is somewhat shy of his/her degree rather than someone who is overqualified with two Master’s.
At the same time, a degree doesn’t just mean studying obscure poets. In college, you learn how to think, research, analyze, and write, not to mention persevering and sacrificing for a goal. Yes, you can pick up some of that through your own studies, but it doesn’t always happen. I could be deluding myself but it seems that degreed professionals more often seem to have a vision or big picture view of their role and trends in their profession, whatever that profession might be.
We all know the issue is not whether someone like her, without a degree but with great experience, can do the job. She can. The issue is how to make it irrelevant.
Yes she can go back to school and put the university (without the degree listed but with her major) on her resume. She can also put the “greater than 500 hours of corporate training in topics such as strategic HR, employee relations….” To demonstrate her knowledge chops.
But the best thing to do is have a great strategy for handling the objection in a non-defensive way. In sales, the technique is called “Feel, Felt, Found”. For her it would go like this: “I understand how you might feel it is important to have a degreed person for this job. In fact, I (or “others”) have felt the same way at times. When hiring someone with more limited experience, I look for the degree as assurance a new hire can learn and grow in the job. However, what I have found – and what my manager’s have found – is that the lack of a degree has never limited what I accomplish in a job. Nor has the demand of raising a family ever detracted from my work. I am a safe bet and my experience has proved it.”
Feel, Felt, Found works because it supports the objection while at the same time dismissing it based on other’s experience with her. I would hate to see her drop out of the search to go back to school at this point in her life unless it was to learn something new – not just get a piece of paper!
Laurie,
Here is a question for you and your contributors:
Do you think employers bias for or against people who have on-line degrees vs. traditional degrees? Do you see any pros or cons with one or another-or does it simply not matter so long as a degree is in hand? Just curious. Part of me respects the independent, self-motivating qualities of an on-line learner, but part of me has an appreciation for the traditional classroom and name recognition of quality colleges and universities. Your thoughts?
Thanks for all the comments – some (not all) of you are schmucks, but I still find you all entertaining on a daily basis. Thus is my dislike of HR who rule by theory and pomposity rather than touching, seeing, feeling who is best for their org and working to help them achieve their best.
I have been back is school for 6 months now (I have 40 hours left), but still need to work. So let’s go back to my original question – how to overcome when submitting my resume and cover letter?
My next question pertains to 5 or 10 years down the road. What will HR do because kids are foregoing the college experience because they can’t afford the skyrocketing tuition? Even if they go to a 4 year, they come out with what equates to mortgage payments for school loans.
Rock on (I really do like y’all)
@Allison I agree about the ideal state of degrees; however, I think HR Puke needs to think about today and what’s best for her. She’s competing against so many people with degrees. I just want her to have the best advantage.
@Fran Thank you! That’s such great advice.
@Dale You’re right about the societal reasons to go back to school.
@adowling Practical advice, as always!
@China This is why you are a great leader and a great HR professional. If only people could be as smart and thoughtful about the hiring process as you.
@Abby Crap, I have a BA in English. I guess I can’t get a job from your clients.
@Dale Great clarification on Person C — especially at the executive level in all areas of corporate america, not just HR.
@Mary Ellen I’m all about creating opportunities for ourselves, not limiting our potential. Agree — a degree works.
@Alfred Thank you! I agree.
@Almostgotit Holy crap, you had me at leisure studies. Where do I get that degree? (What a load of crap.)
@MarkF Let’s take this a step further. To MBA or not MBA? I wish you still had your blog.
@HAria Good advice. Sometimes you gotta be the system to beat the system.
@MattyMat Hahahahahhahahahaha. Reverse midas touch. Love it.
@Angela Thanks for the comment!
@Michelle Evening/online programs are so helpful for women, aren’t they? Education is the great equalizer, they say.
@HR Puf Did you just get all SHRM on me? Griggs v Duke Energy ‘71? Are you HRPuf, SPHR? Love it.
@AskaManager And it’s an excellent question. SHOULD versus IS. The debate rages on in so many aspects of our lives.
@Daisycutter I think — right now — traditional degrees are preferred. Jack Welch just dropped $2MM of his own cash in online programs, so I think the tide will turn.
I love how companies value 4 years of drinking and sleeping around over 4+ years of real experience and expertise.
@Lori: Those are important skills for sales and sr management.
I’m in the same boat as HR Puke, although at the production / quality end of the pool. I am picking up classes that reinforce my job experience – I haven’t been hired yet, but showing the initiative has pulled my resume out of the ‘may call’ pile and put it in the ‘do call’ pile.
Some of the comments (including Puke’s response) were in my spam queue. Sorry about that!
@Irish Wake I think showing initiative, and talking about your initiative, are so important. Show AND tell.
@Salescomp/Lori LOL.
@HR Puke Show and tell. You can put your education experience with your TBD degree date on your resume. That will help. I would also talk include very specific executive-level accomplishments and results in your resume. Might not help to include C-level references up front — maybe as a final page to your resume/CV — so it looks like you have immediate endorsement and support. I also wonder if it’s your education that is holding you back from getting a job. Sometimes it’s just stupid things like ageism, or as HRPuf reminds us, likability. They gotta like you to hire you.
@Duncan FEEL FELT FOUND. That’s new for me. Thank you. I just learned something awesome.
@Kris I took diplomatic history courses in college. The best thing I learned? Conflict resolution skills. Treaties were signed and wars were ended using good old fashioned relationship management skills.
*Sorry if I missed anyone else. These comments were going to spam in WordPress. Boo!*
That advice is about as punk rock as a pair of Dockers.
HRP- look into a small business loan to start your own HR consulting service to which companies can outsource their business, like so many have in these times.
You’ll be surprised how when you deliver results – at a fraction of the cost of degree-carrying pukes – how the lack of sheepskin is no longer an albatross around your experienced neck.
Or, just pay a college premium cash for irrelevant courses. You’ll never see the ROI in your lifetime, but you’ll be a part of the club.
@Joe I could tell her to go fuck the world and fight the man, but she would be poor and homeless. The best punks were entrepreneurs, academics, and artists. They were educated. They could disrupt the system because they knew the system. That’s the secret.
I too fall into the catagory of an experienced professional that chased a degree for almost 20 years now while raising a family (that is still growing, actually). After 15 years of production management experience with GM, I lost my gig. Soon, I will lose my house and my wife and I, along with our 2 young children, will be living in mom’s basement. I had a very chaotic upbringing and college was never a full-time or in many cases an “anytime” option due to circumstances. Regardless, I have accumulated roughly 75 credit hours toward a BA in HR Management over the years, but now find myself hitting brick walls continously because I am just “under-qualified” by not having the pedigree. Once I do finish, I will be 50K+ in debt, credit destroyed from a foreclosure and in need to focus on making the best life I can for my kids. I don’t know how things could feasibly get much worse…but they seem to quite often nowadays.
Great blog. Though I would laugh at anyone with a resume that listed U of Phoenix! I would hire the gentleman in question rather than someone spending way too much cash on a faux degree.
LOL @ U of Phoenix.