From my brother.
Without his permission, of course.
I’m filling out a job application that asks me, “What’s the highest grade level completed?”
What do I put down? I have two years of college. Is that 14th grade? Is that what they want to know? I never know what to put.
I told Eddie that it doesn’t matter as long as he doesn’t lie — and really, he should go back to school and finish that degree.
Who’s with me?
{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
It sounds more like a poorly designed job application question.
Onto your latter point, why should he return to school? Is it to master a particular area of learning? Develop particular competencies? Participate in mere credentialism?
What is going to be his return on investment? Is someone else going to be paying for it? Someone smart wrote about returning to school (albeit for a MBA) a few years back: http://punkrockhr.com/credibility-without-the-mba/. Is going back to complete one’s degree any different?
First,
He totally needs to write the 14th grade, then next semester he can put 14.5th grade and so on.
He should also go back to finish his degree so he knows the answer to this tricky question among other brain teasers he’s likely to face.
One other point…as someone on the education side of the aisle, I see my fair share of students who simply should not be in the classroom. Some are simply incapable of doing that level of work. Others are capable, but are not motivated, and would be better off working for a few years, and then returning to school when they find an area/major that they really want to pursue.
In a perfect world school would be a viable option. But that’s not the reality. It’s difficult to go back; it requires that your personal and professional lives be accommodating to this which isn’t always true. Online courses are an option but not always viewed positively by companies. And you can’t forget about the cost, which further complicates the decision. It’s not an easy choice and most organizations do a poor job of supporting their employee’s formal/informal education efforts.
From what it sounds like, he should but 12th. College isn’t really based on grades like k-12, so for completed it would be 12th (high school), then Associate, then Bachelors, then Masters, so on and so on.
It sounds like most applications, where it is a one size fits all use application, which can be a bit frustrating. As someone who is filling out applications myself, I’m always amazed when I’ve identified that I have a college degree, and they still want to know what high school I went to?
I usually put “4 years of college,” but grade completed always sounds like a dumb question to me. Graduated (yes?/no?) makes more sense as a non HR person.
It is true that one has to weigh out the factors when pondering whether to go back to school and “finish the degree.” What jobs can you get now without the degree, what different jobs could you get later on with the degree, level of work satisfaction, lost earnings now verses future higher earning, etc. I imagine actually “learning” and becoming more formally educated is a plus that should be mentioned, too.
I have a pal, from grad school, that stayed in school long after I received my M.Ed. and moved on (He pursued a Ph.D. in Organic Chemistry and it felt like he was in school a full decade longer than me). The friend was still living in run down apartments, right off campus, when I was in my 3rd house! Long story short, he is now tossing back $250k a year in base, with additional huge bonus opportunities for his research, and by the way, he LOVES what he does.
Roundabout way for me to say, I am almost always for more education, and would advocate for Eddie to finish the degree, for more reasons than one.
I hate to say this, but as member of a staffing function in a multi-national organization, I know that the application won’t get past base 1 in our company if they don’t see a degree of some sort… which to me stinks. I don’t have an official degree, I have however other qualifications (not from this country) and am judged by this and not my ability to run million dollar projects, managing large teams and doing this globally and virtually. I am back at school and will finish in May 2011, and thankfully my company is paying….
As for the question, don’t lie, but work it a little…. and yes, go finish school, it is worth it in the long run.
Education: the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent. – John Maynard Keynes
As for getting a degree, I’d say it’d be worthwhile if he got it in something that will yield a secure job. Also, he should carefully consider if the job requires a masters to do what he wants to. For example, in social work and economics, you typically need a masters. He should also find something that suits his personality and level of sanity.
As someone who spent two years at college, then worked for over a decade before deciding to finish my degree off, I definitely second the calls for him to complete his degree. The main reason I went back was because I lost out on a sweet, sweet job I was completely qualified for because “This is a vice president level position, and we don’t feel comfortable giving it to someone without a degree.” Yes, I’m still a little bitter.
Since he’s looking for a job now, I’d recommend he stop by his local community college and see how far away from an Associates degree he is. Sure, it’s not a bachelors, but it’s a degree and it shows that you completed something, and that’s mostly what the question is asking. Plus tuition is way cheaper than at a university, and it’ll put him on the right track to get the four-year degree knocked out.
I concur with what Phillip said.
Personally, I did 2 years at the community college before getting into my bachelor’s program. It saved me at least $40k and gave me a chance to explore what was out there.
@akabruno The job is at the local factory — so the ROI for the first two years of college is low. [Stop quoting my awesomeness, by the way.
] I’m sad that we have such a low rate of college graduates in my family. This is more of a personal issue for me, I guess, but I hoped Eddie could get into the ‘exclusive club’. This is why I don’t have kids. It’s not healthy to push your dreams onto other people.
@David I have to laugh because I think he’s just asking what other kids ask — what the fuck do I need to do to make sure this application doesn’t get bounced??
@Victorio Amen.
@HRPuf Do you put down HARD KNOCKS? I wonder if anyone really puts down their high school?
@Anne I like when the ask for the high school name, the area of concentration, how many years you spent, and whether or not you graduated. It’s high school — not Harvard!
@Dale Thank you for being on Team Laurie. That’s all that counts when it comes to disagreements between two siblings.
@Natacha He wants to be a musician. I’m like — be a plumber or an IT support clerk or an electrician + get your college degree + be a musician on the side.
@econopete Eddie never reads my blog, but I’m not sure he’d do anything corporate. I’d like to see him be a tradesman of some sort. Doesn’t require college, but does require an education. http://www.mikeroweworks.com/job-site/
@Phillip Thank you. Your check is in the mail.
I would just put 2 years of college for highest grade completed. But you’re right, he should go back if he can afford it. Again, let’s deal with reality. In the real world there are gobs of people with degrees, and if you want to beat the system, you have to play the system’s game. College is Level 1 of the game. Sure, there are plenty of idiot college graduates. But bitching about the game won’t change it til you get to Level 5 or 6, and you probably can’t get there without that degree.
I do think it’s stupid that jobs that have no need for a degree make it a requirement, especially when college is not a viable financial option for so many (especially now when banks are squeezing the money tighter than Scrooge McDuck). But if you get to Level 5 or 6 of the game, then you have some influence to change those requirements.
That said, when people say “a college degree is just a piece of paper,” I want to punch them in the face. I worked my ass off for my degree. The reality is that when you’re 20 you simply can rock & roll all night, party every day, and still complete a metric ton of studying and papers. But most people who don’t go through it only see the party part and not the party where you’re staying up til 3 am with pneumonia & in a complete panic over maintaining a high GPA so you don’t lose your financial aid.
How many of us got a degree back when we didn’t know what the hell we wanted to be when we grew up? I find it funny to review LinkedIn profiles and compare job title with the degrees they have. For example… a VP of Finance with a chemistry degree or a HR Director with a Latin degree.
Technically, that degree would get him past the pass/fail recruiting screen on that question, but is that any better than a highly experienced finance professional that doesn’t have a degree?
I’m for getting a degree, but it is a shame that many smart, loyal, hardworking people no longer have a chance due to automated application screening.
It is also a shame that so many stupid people have degrees… but that wasn’t the topic was it?
I knew early this morning I would not be able to stay away from this subject without commenting on the whole “value of a degree” deal. After reading through the accumulating posts, I can’t help myself from chiming in a smidge more.
Yes people have “street smarts” and yes there are idiots out there with all sorts of degrees. There are education-junkies who stay up at night wondering what wonderful things would befall them if they only had a third master’s degree, and there are CEO titans making gross gobs of cash that barely made it out of high school. I get all that.
But for the love of frick!, those are all “Uncle Chuck stories.” They exist, they are out there, and everyone has one, but c’mon, that is not how the numbers play out, en masse. If you want to play the odds, and have a higher chance of success, getting a degree is the right way to go. I’ve said it before: People who devalue college degrees are routinely people who do not have a degree.
A degree matters. Education matters. I do not care if your major was Economics, or Elizabethan Poetry (Thinking of a great Kevin Bacon line from the movie: She’s having a Baby, but that is another story). In order to get the degree, in the end, you had to do things to get that degree which matter. You had to show up, think, read, write, create, present, work in teams, work alone, meet deadlines. All those things matter. In fact, sometimes those things matter more than the subject material itself.
Degrees matter.
What is sad is that a degree is essential in modern America to obtain middle class status, especially if you want to have kids. It used not to be this way. Back before we offshored and outsourced everything, you could graduate from HS and if you wanted a degree, you could get a college education. But if not, you could work the assembly line and earn a good living, maybe make manager someday. Those days are long gone.
Now if you don’t have a degree, you live paycheck to paycheck, and if you are lucky, you might qualify for some good govt benes like EIC and SCHIP and maybe even Medicaid and free school lunches for your kids. So what does everybody do? Go to college. With demand through the roof, college costs skyrocket. It’s simple economics.
Which means that everybody who is anybody is expected to have a degree, which makes it harder for those who have the brains but not so much money to get an education. And the system totally screws people who don’t really have what it takes to go to college, condemning them to a life of low-skill, low-wage jobs, maybe a semi-professional job if they are lucky.
Another negative result of high demand for college education is a lowering of standards. Everybody wants it, to the point of taking out life-sapping loans to get it, why beat your brains out trying to be top notch… I felt like I could teach all of the courses I took this past semester… the textbook companies in their quest for profits have made teaching courses a turnkey solution… slides are provided for in-class lectures, homework is done on the textbook publishers website as well as studying for tests, the teachers pull their questions from a bank provided by the textbook manufacturer… the teachers don’t have to think anymore.
The real tragedy of the loss of American manufacturing is the disenfranchisement of those Americans who have no business going to college but who would make great workers.
100% with Dale.
I’d like to share a personal story that taught me the value of education….
My father went to IIT (India’s most prestigious Engineering institute) and earned a degree in Civil Engineering (this is over 30 yrs ago), he did it coz he loved Engineering, not beacuse he necessarily wanted a carrer in it. After graduating he joined my grand dad’s family business – a photography studio, and spent the next 7 years as a full time photograher. One day, his studio burned down, and he was left with no source of income…BUT he had a great degree that backed him up. He started his civil engieering career nearly a decade later than his classmates and rose through the ranks to the point where today he has his own business.
Point being, he could pick himself back up coz he had a degree to back him up…no other story really drives the point home for me but this one. [and also the fact that one of the main reasons my mom married him is coz he had a degree!
]
@dale – I agree with your comments and your point of view but wanted to weigh in on one little portion of what you wrote simply because I hate the term “street smart” because I think it evolved from describing someone as savvy in a non-traditional way – to being an excuse for not being “book smart.” I don’t know who first said this but here you go:
Whenever someone says “I’m not book smart, but I’m street smart”, all I hear is “I’m not real smart, but I’m imaginary smart.”
I can relate to @RyanW’s point. I graduated high school and went straight to college. I thought I knew what I wanted to do, forensic pathology, but as it turns out I cant do Chemistry to save my own life. After that I floundered around trying to decide what I wanted out of life. It took me almost 7 yrs to figure out it was HR. I then set out to get a degree in HR, after I had the management in job in HR. I did it backwards because thats how I roll.
Point is, college isnt for everyone at the same time is supposed to be. He might figure it out one day and go back. If he can get a degree in a trade job and still do music on the side then more power to him! Do what you love Eddie, as long as you keep the bills paid while doing it.
I always loved what Robert Pirsig wrote about grades and education and why one should be in college in “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (see pp. 194-199).
Essentially, he starts out with the elimination of grades and degrees. A student has no interest in the subject matter, and not having grades to hold him or her, eventually drops out. That student drfits around until finding something that sparks a passion (whether it is something he or she loves and is motivated to learn more, or something that he or she hates and is motivated to learn to make a change). He or she then returns to school driven to learn and education would be meaningful.
My husband wanted to be a musician. After getting a 2 year community college degree and playing cover tunes in bars, he decided to go back to school and get a four year degree. He ended up with a CPA, public accounting, controller CFO and now is a self-employed CFO/business valuation guy who still would really like to be a musician. I married him because he would rather be a musician and because he has his feet most of the time planted in reality. (I also have my feet planted most of the time in reality) Somehow, you brother needs to find the balance between his passion and making a living and ultimately, he’ll have to get there on his own. You can still push, but like anything with other humans (brothers, husbands, kids and possibly cats) nothing will happen until they own it themselves.
BTW, job applications in general really suck.
Simple, put down: College (2 years), incomplete
He should go back to school, anywhere that has a job application this lame can’t be more than a paycheck to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels with.
Then again, my corporate job buys me many bottles of Jack Daniels… and no offense to those who enjoy fine spirits.
I agree…he should go get the degree finished…maybe not the same track as before but get it done. I have worked with companies that even entry level sales positions require a degree…any degree. It may not even apply to the position but it says the person finished something…right? Worst case scenario…VP of IS at a company I worked at had no degree…got the job on who he knew and experience. 15 years later if they let him go he has no options…very few companies will hire an executive without any degree. He is stuck…and he knows it.
“I’m not book smart, but I’m street smart”
It’s OK to say that if you can back it up with solid skills. My grandfather’s best friend never went past 8th grade, but he was a heck of a carpenter. He raised a family of five kids with his own business as a carpenter making custom cabinetry and furniture. One of my prized possessions that my sister covets and will get when I am dead is the cedar chest he made for me, with dovetailed joints, handmade nails, and all.
But as I said, you gotta back it up with actual marketable skills.
You can see the chest here:
http://class-factotum.blogspot.com/2009/11/marriage-201-lecture-352-out-of-office.html
Had you asked the question in the 70s, maybe early 80s, the degree wouldn’t have been essential (consider that the software business was just taking off, and, for the most part, people in that line of work came into from a variety of sources, some degreed, some not). There was also the hangover of the 60s (e.g. the example above citing Pirsig) that one should do what one wants.
Today, though, it’s probably more essential: partly because of a desire to “hire by the quantitative objective criteria” (perhaps to avoid claims of discrimination, perhaps because of a lack of evaluation skill, who knows), and with the ease of electronically applying at dozens of places, there’s a desire for some sort of easy “check off the box” criteria.
There’s also a desire on some professions to get more “professional” by requiring a degree for entry, even though they’ve historically more experience based (e.g. surveying). To be a bit cynical, I’d comment that some of the advocates for such changes are faculty of schools offering degrees in that field.