I traveled to the England and had a heck of an adventure.
Among many things, here’s what I learned at Tru London.
- HR people hate recruiters.
- Recruiters hate HR people.
This may be obvious to some and/or overstated to others, but I was surprised at the animosity in the UK.
In a fight between HR and recruiting professionals, there are no winners — only losers.
I’m betting that the HR industry in the UK will mature and adapt to the new economy, but in the meanwhile, I’m not sure how anyone gets hired in London. There’s so much vitriol and condescension. When HR professionals and recruiters are mired in a war for relevancy, it makes for a mediocre hiring process.
It’s also embarrassing as hell to witness the dialogue.
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Having worked in the UK in 2006, I have similar observations regarding the cultural and corporate aversion within UKHR to perform any recruiting-related functions, and the general animosity between the two disticntly related functions.
UK companies outsource a far greater percentage of their recruitment to 3rd parties than most US companies. Honestly, I don’t understand the business rationale behind a loyalty to that model. Any UK (or US for that matter) company that hires more than 10 new people per year through 3rd party recruiters can reduce their cost 30-50% by implementing a few simple internal recruitment functions.
Having been on both sides of this situation, thought I’d throw my two cents in! I worked at a large Wall Street firm in the late ’90′s as a Recruiter. The resumes pretty much flowed in like water — albeit through snail mail as the internet wasn’t really what it is today. We worked with agencies a bit but not a lot because the company I worked for did not want to pay a fee. I left to raise my family; now that my girls are in school full day, I have taken a job on the “agency side” so I can work while they’re in school — 9-2 (of course, I do a lot from home as everyone else does, but I’m only out of the house during those hours). Most of the clients I have right now are small companies — one-or-two member CPA firms, small law firms with one or two partners. They don’t have HR departments so when they need to staff up or if they need temporary help, they call me. I am essentially their recruiting department. But, being on the agency side, I am not allowed access to some tools which are afforded to the “hiring company.” Sites such as alumni organizations’ websites will not allow an “agency” to post jobs with them — even though I am essentially working as the HR department for these small companies, who can’t afford to necessarily have an HR person on staff.
To me, anyone who is trying to assist people get jobs, no matter what their title, should be afforded every opportunity to do so. My goal is to help more unemployed people get paychecks. Me, I only get a paycheck if I place the candidate.
That is very much the case in this country I’m afraid. There is a lot of politics and power struggle going on behind the curtain and the big losers are hiring managers and candiates…
Laurie—
Great post about a topic not isolated to the UK.
Moving from an agency recruiter to a corporate director of staffing 5 years ago, the biggest thing I learned to do was to over-communicate with my HR Generalist partners. When companies are in growth mode, internal and external staffing leaders are the kings of the hill and will often run over HR folks in an effort to be seen as the company saviors bringing on top talent. Short sighted.
HR generalists have a wealth of information about the company, the business, top performers and underperformers. Good staffing folks have a lot of the same information, sometimes from different internal and external sources. If the Staffing/HR function wants to be valued by the business, they need to communicate openly and often, so that the combined groups are smarter. This has worked for my firm, and seems to make sense. Took me a while to figure it out.
Does not always work this way…too often individuals will try to protect their own information silos or relationship silos, and HR ends up looking like a bunch of disconnected idiots.
As a staffing recruiter, in the past my only reason for hating HR is the hiring “procedures” implemented by some HR professionals/directors thinking it will make the department run smoother and the hiring process more efficient— when the exact opposite is true– and they refuse to listen to criticism from a “lower level” 3rd party vendor.
On the flip side— I like HR because the girls are better looking than other departments!!
I believe this is still the case with companies here in the US.
Hell, my personal favorite are the former HR recruiter folks who have moved into new roles and insist that they’re better recruiters than you. (I’m dealing with this situation right now).
I would disagree with Matty, the girls in marketing are waayyy better than HR.
Thank you for bringing up this topic! I am currently working in my first job in a very large organization, having come from small offices in the past. I am finding it shocking, to say the least, how much animosity and, frankly, inefficiency there is between the Recruitment department and various other HR departments.
What gets me is that we’re all working for the same team. We’re all trying to accomplish the same goals. There really is no reason for people to get territorial since it’s all the same territory.
And I must agree, it’s embarrassing. I’m sure it would be embarrassing to whatch people childishly argue about this, but it’s personally embarrassing to be involved in it.
I like seeing articles and discussions like this!! Thanks for raising it.
Having been an agency recruiter, then a corporate recruiter & HR generalist in London for 15 years, before coming to the US to build and lead corporate TA groups for the past 10 years, I too have a point of view on this.
I’ve concluded that organizations end up with the HR and Recruiting teams they deserve – regardless of company, sector, or national cultures. I’ve been fortunate to work for some of the best and worst HR leaders during my career, and their HR & Recruiting teams reflected their respective vision or ignorance about the transforming potential of great HR and great Talent Acquisition groups.
In the UK’s professional HR organization (CIPD) I found that ‘Recruiting’ is better integrated and understood that it appears to be with SHRM, but I’m looking forward to having the opportunity to change that over the next 3 years.
I think what you experienced in London was just a UK manifestation of what exists just as obviously in the US. However Brits tend to be quicker and blunter in getting to the point, as opposed to adopting a more passive-aggressive style of resistance. Check out ‘Riding the Waves of Culture’.
Another example of petty politics making all involved losers.
I’ve never worked for a company that had a recruiting department, but I have worked for companies where some upper management muckity-muck has a buddy who’s an “expert” in recruiting, and the company proceeds to circumvent HR to spend money on this 3rd party “expert” who comes in and tells HR what’s what because golf buddies of muckities are allowed to do that. I’ve seen the Golf Buddy Syndrome play out more than once, especially when HR is all women, and it’s had nothing to do with the effectiveness of HR.
I’ve no problem working with a 3rd party recruiter when I’m involved in the process! In fact, I’m happy to work with a recruiter when the labor market is tight (oh, to have that problem now!). But there’s more to this issue than just HR vs. Recruiters. That animosity has always started (in my experiences) because of somebody else up the executive food chain.
Ouch, I’ve heard that before – now you’ve validated it. A buddy of mine served there at the U.S. Embassy a few years ago and he said it was just a lot of ugly treatment from people toward other people.
Do you think it was just recruiting, or evidence of a bigger issue?
P.S. I saw Jon Ingham’s vlog yesterday about one gentleman who was present at the conference — sounds consistent with your analysis.
I think this may be a case of a vocal, most likely dramatic, minority creating the appearance that this kind of discord is the norm. I’ve worked third party and in-house, and it’s been my experience that about 10% of the time this kind of attitude exists. At the majority of companies I’ve worked for and with (including some based in the U.K.) there exists a mutual desire and cooperation to get the job done and done right.
Just because a minority is vocal, doesn’t mean it’s the norm. Heck, as an American of Italian descent, I can assure you the cast of “Jersey Shore” doesn’t represent the majority of us.
Welcome back to the U.S. dude!
@Puf Well I validated with some of my ex-colleagues and they simply said, “Aren’t third party recruiters out to make money versus work on behalf our organization? Like pesky salesmen, yes?” I also heard that upwards of 70% of non-executive placements are made through recruitment agencies. Sigh.
@Josh LOL, yes, that man is on my mind — among many. I think there’s a broader issue. Money changes everything, and some people can’t get past the fact that you can make money AND do the right thing.
@HAria My favorite is when Director X calls me and says, “I’m filling my role with a candidate. I’ve found him through this agency. Schedule his onboarding and sign off on the invoice.” Oh no, fk that, let’s start this conversation over again.
@Marsha Word.
@Richard Excellent quote. I’d like to learn more about CIPD because it seems like SHRM/CIPD could learn loads from one another. Thanks for the reference to the article, too.
@Anna No wait, I work for Team #1: Laurie. That was my problem when I was in both recruiting AND HR. But I get your point and you’re so right.
@Johnny Marketing girls can afford collagen, botox, and pilates. HR women don’t care.
@MattyMat IT recruiters are the bane of my existence, by the way.
@RJ Wow, you sound well versed in this experience Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
@Jorgen Exactly.
@Nicole So wise and well balanced. You’re hired in my new company.
@Frank Maybe that’s your future business model? Selling this type of training to internal UK recruitment departments. It would work!
It’s the weather. Rain makes Brits and their closes neighbors crankyy. Braveheart would have never happened in southern California. Seattle’s saving grace has been Starbucks and grunge, Vancouver has it’s view. Britian has vitriol.
Again I have to say that’s the result of the sadly vocal minority. In order for third party recruiters to have long term success they have to partner with their customers. They are out to make money for themselves just as much as any employee of any company is, but to make lots of money over a long period of time, they need a symbiotic relationship with employers, where they are working on their behalf and in their best interest (again, just like any employee they have).
I say the fault that causes many (including the Brits) to have thoughts about there being a divisive relationship is two fold:
1. The crappy third party recruiter that operate as pests and won’t stop cold calling companies with nothing but a prayer for a job order.
2. The hiring managers that give them the time of day.
A great way to cement the partnerships is to allow your internal recruiting organization to manage third parties and the relationships, they speak the language and can cut through the crap that’s out there and provide real value add partners that will operate seamlessly (I know it happens a lot, I’ve been on both sides of that equation).
If you don’t have an internal recruiting function, teach your hiring managers one simple question to ask vendors: What’s your send out to hire ratio? If it’s higher than 5:1, hang up the phone.
@Laurie Curious? Why IT recruiter’s specifically?? I’ve noticed a degree of annoying coming from most recruiters and HR people I’ve dealt with anyway, but why IT?….. hmmm….. interesting.
Laurie- Thanks for sharing… I know a TON of AMAZING people internally and externally, and folks I stay away from on both sides also..
“The Universe rearranges itself to fit your perception of reality.”
ENERGY flows where attention goes…. Best, Brian-
Nine years ago, I was part of a project to centralize recruitment as its own department. Before, the generalists did everything, and the move to a recruitment center was like a slap in the face for them, because they felt one of the most interesting and enjoyable parts of their work was taken away from them. It took five years to patch the interface between the two functions because of the backlash. Nowadays, it’s the other way around: The HR Generalists(tm) get all the glory for being “strategic”, and staffers seem envious.