I’ve come to view my wardrobe as a feminist issue. Now that I’m old and self-employed, I wear what I want. I dress up and try to look nice according to my standards and my budget. I try not to fall under the spell of some fashion magazine that tells me pencil skirts, footless tights, and ballet flats are appropriate for the office.
They’re not.
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When I worked in Corporate America, I traveled to see executives and other HR leaders. I tried to look professional and stylish. My weight fluctuated. I was always shopping. I wore outfits that were no less than $250 — and that’s without the shoes. If the outfit was new — and if I wore fancy shoes with tights AND a real bra + accessories — the outfit was easily $1,000.
I never wanted to wear the same outfit to the same location because I was an idiot. I feared being judged. I had at least fifteen different outfits at any given time. Rotate in seasons, weight gain, weight loss, and insecurities. I was spending a fortune. In any given season, I could drop $15,000 on a wardrobe.
That’s $15K that could have been maturing in a 401k or paying off my student loans.
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Could I wash any of those clothes in a washing machine, by the way? Hell no. I had to budget money for dry cleaning.
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If you are one of the many men I’ve hired during my career, you probably rocked the standard-issue wardrobe of khaki pants and a button-down shirt. This is true even if you’re a Vice President in a Fortune 500 company. Those pants are $50 at Eddie Bauer. A shirt might be $29.99 at Macy’s, but your wife probably used one of those 40% off coupons.
It’s possible that I hired you and you showed up to work on the first day wearing clothes that could washed on the permanent press cycle and dried on tumble dry low setting. Your outfit was under $75 and you didn’t give a crap.
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I always bristle when corporate executives complain about the decline in dress code standards. When I was twenty-six, I talked a chief operating officer out of a revamped formal dress code policy. We walked through some of the expenses related to clothing. We talked about clothing as a morale issue. We discussed how expenses related to clothes could adversely impact the women in his office.
I suggested that he pay his employees more and include complimentary dry cleaning. He laughed and we never talked about it, again.
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What do you think about corporate dress codes? Do they disproportionately burden women? Do you refuse to spend money on clothing? How much of your income is spent on clothing?
I also wonder if your corporate wardrobe an extension of your personal beliefs? Do you refuse to wear something out of principle? Do you always wear an article of clothing to make a statement?
Talk to me about your clothes.
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In general, being a professional is costly. I recently went to some board meetings, so I had to buy a new jacket. One that fit and looked good was $150, which is a bit pricey for me. The jacket was a hit: I felt confident and all that jazz, but I can’t splurge like that again anytime soon. I have some more meetings coming up and I’m finding more affordable outfits in off-price stores. Even if it’s only a $30 jacket, over time, it adds up. You must have a clothing budget to be considered a player at work. Even if it’s a SMALLER budget, it’s still a line item in your life.
Good point, Laurie. I’ve always thought that men get an easier deal than women when it comes to what to wear to work. In fact, on what to wear, full stop!
These days, I don’t do so much corporate work myself, but when I was employed and/or did a lot of consulting I used to spend a fortune on work clothes, and had a wardrobe full of “suits”. To be honest, I never really minded because I’ve always had the attitude that your clothes say something about your brand. I outgrew that kind of stuff because, the more I’ve worked for myself, the less I identified with it. I suppose my brand changed.
Now I still spend quite a lot on clothes (I’m scared to do the math!), but I tend to wear things that are more expressive of me, that I can wear most days whatever I’m doing, and that I’m comfortable to adapt for any coaching work I do end up doing in the corporate world.
I generally think work clothes should be as unobtrusive as possible, with an eye toward meeting clients’ expectations about what a thoughtful person in a certain profession would look like. As a journalist, I need people to be able to relax around me, not marvel at where I managed to buy a particular shade of Manic Panic.
And while I am sympathetic to the costs associated with dressing well for work, I don’t have much sympathy for the youngins who complain about the price of decent suits when they are wearing $100 jeans. You can dress well professionally on a budget, if you do it thoughtfully and don’t focus on trends.
I think my attitude about work clothes reflects my job – I don’t deal face-to-face with customers, and only a few times a month with vendors. Our office is currently business-casual, and I honestly think it’s too formal. I’m more comfortable when I’m dressed down, and I do better work. I think I’m one of those people who get the most done at home in their PJ’s.
I rarely put much thought into my dress, mostly because I’m just starting out, have a ton of school debt, and have a shoe-string budget. I literally have 5 of the same v-neck sweater in different colors, 2 pairs of dress pants, and probably 5 various shirts that I can alternate under the sweaters. That’s my entire work wardrobe.
One’s attitude on their dress really does reflect what they value. Some value the way others perceive them, and their dress reflects that. Others, like me, don’t really care either way, and feel that time spent doing one’s hair and picking out an outfit is worth more if it’s spent reading the paper or really enjoying a cup of tea. Neither is more right – it’s all internal.
At our company, the dress code is smart casual and we like it this way because the translation is basically no jeans, t-shirts or mini-skirts. We expect that people dress appropriately. Our CEO also supports this dress code with rarely wearing a tie around the office, but always in smart pants and a collar shirt. I don’t think one’s dress, unless really inappropriate, should be a judgment of their ability to meet objectives or their analysis of their behaviors.
I HATE dress codes. Not necessarily because of the issues you bring up, but because of the absurdly parental nature of the whole thing. It may be the single thing that defines the irrelevance of traditional HR. “I’ll hire you to manage $850,000 of our assets, but I don’t think you have the sense to wear the right kind of shoes to work.” Right. I know I’m an HR heretic, but I would hope that you wouldn’t need to be told that you might want to consider different choices if you’re meeting with the CEO rather than spending the day in your office pounding reports by yourself. ‘Employee Engagement’ is a trendy issue these days, but how engaged can you be if you can’t even dress yourself?
Oh, and to answer your question, formal dress codes absolutely disadvantage women. I’m a guy that’s been in HR for over 25 years, and even back in the days when we had to wear suits every day, a guy could get away with only owning two or three suits, as long as you had lots of different shirts and ties.
But if we want to fundamentally change the impact of HR, the next time your CEO comes to you wanting to beef up the dress code, say “Why–so we can look good walking into bankruptcy court? Maybe we should focus on the business instead.”
I work as a pretty high up person in corporate America (Fortune 500) and think the dress code thing is a joke. We lose a lot of productivity by having employees (men and women) spend their day talking about jean day. Let’s say we have 100,000 people working at this company and they each spend 15 minutes a week talking about jean day, that is 1,300,000 hours of lost productivity.
The funny thing is that employees say that they work better and are more productive when they are comfortable in jeans. If this is true, why do we have this stupid dress code? Seems to me that if we could get a 20% lift in productivity for wearing jeans we may need 10% less employees. Assuming $30,000 average employee expense, the savings would be $300,000,000. I guess wearing the proper polyester and rayon blend is more important than saving money.
I think, to me at least, that maybe the most interesting question is this — when someone drops a grand on a work outfit, for whom are they dressing? Themselves? Their peers? Their managers? Their customers? Potential mates? Have you observed a different career trajectory for those who shop at Target/Kohls/Stein Mart/TJ Maxx than those who shop at Macy’s/Neimann Marcus/Ann Taylor/JCrew?
I think women judge one another much more on the basis of clothes than men judge women on clothes. I don’t think I could distinguish between a pair of Manolo Blanik (not even sure I’m spelling this correctly) and a pair of shoes bought from the Pay Less discount rack. But I’m pretty confident my wife could.
Interesting topic.
Great post, Laurie. I could on and on about this, but I’ll try to spare you. Absolutely, corporate dress codes disproportionately burden women.
I’m sure you’re familiar with Darlene Jespersen’s lawsuit against Harrah’s: she was fired for refusing to wear makeup after 21 years of exemplary service. Michael Selmi, George Washington University Law School, explains the two legal theories at the core of Jespersen’s legal challenge to her firing: The Unequal Burdens Test, and the developing area of Sexual Stereotyping law in this article: The Many Faces of Darlene Jespersen. Selmi says that it’s unrealistic to expect that courts would find a policy requiring makeup to be demeaning to women, or stereotypical in some way, as Jespersen argued, given that our existing social norms embrace makeup rather than condemn it. He also argues that the workplace should not be a place to express our identities and the fact that we often look to work as a place for authenticity, speech, democracy, or sex, simply confirms that we place too much importance on the workplace for our lives. He ultimately concludes that this case is really more about power and status – the limited power and status of someone like Darlene Jespersen who worked as a bartender – rather than about the failings of antidiscrimination law.
As for my own wardrobe, well, I’m a university professor and therefore expected to look frumpy and not to know my way around a make-up kit. It doesn’t take much effort here to look stylish, given the low expectations. But the female professor who thinks her clothes don’t matter is naïve. Even if administration isn’t paying attention, students sure are. When I started my tenure-track job, I was 29 and looked younger, and petite (like you, weight varies, and when you’re not that big to start with, 10-20 pounds means a couple of dress sizes), so I nearly always wore jackets to try to project authority. I didn’t wear jeans to teach until I was over 40. I’m wearing less and less make-up these days, because it irritates my middle-aged eyes. But I remember when I was interviewing for jobs 16-17 years ago, colleagues advising me to wear at least lipstick. You don’t want to wear too much make-up because that makes people think you’re not a serious scholar, but you can’t go without *any*, because that makes you a ball-busting feminist (which of course I am, but I needed to hide that until I got the job
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How about Nicolas Cage, as Jack Campbell, in The Family Man? Remember the opening shot of him in his NYC penthouse closet, and all those suits and shirts and ties all in a row…pristine. Now that would be nice.
Instead, I meander down to the Van Heusen outlet store and buy half a dozen light blue, half a dozen dark blue, button down shirts, and some matching trousers. Throw in some Gold Toe over-the-calf socks (Did you see the sock-trouser gap, of Obama, on 60 Minutes! C’mon man, buy some socks that don’t leave bare 5-inches of calf), and I am set.
All the clothes in my closet likely cost less than one of Laurie’s outfits.
I refuse to wear:
1. matchy-matchy colors for a given holiday (i.e. red on Valentine’s Day or green on St. Patty’s Day) or any sort of theme-day (crazy hat day, team-color day). In the prehistoric days, I worked in HR Depts that also “organized” these sorts of things as morale builders. Shudder.
2. Polo-shirts/golf-shirts – ESPECIALLY with the company logo. I hate the collars and I always look like a box. Why do so many organizations beleive the one-size-fits-all corporate logo’ed golf-shirt is something we are all dying for? Instead, just give me the $25 you spent on this ugly shirt I will never wear .
And yes – as a young neophyte HR Corporate Recruiter in banking, I made miniscule sums of money and spent a large proportion of it on suits (and we women could NOT wear pants suits – had to be skirts or dresses with a jacket) and dry cleaning. TPTB who didn’t believe women should wear pants also wanted to enact a revised dress code that was about 8 pages long and got down to the details of the size, honest-to-god, of pockets people were allowed to have on their pants, jackets etc (some VP was upset when an employee came to work with a jacket with pockets he deemed “too big”).
All HR should be completely outlawed as an abuse of human rights!
HR is another ploy by the “Corporate Board Association” to play God and reduce the world population down to haves and have-nots, the HR people are the reason for the decline of the middle-class and Western Civilization. They only see in black and white, can’t see past their own billfold, and, saddest thing, have the ear of the uber-incompetent CEOs, which is why this country is going down the toilet, muy rapido.
How you dress is NO (I repeat, NO) indication of your character (unless your shallow enough to believe all the industrial sludge called sweetness and light, with a sprinkling of Britney Spears and Madonna, that’s drilled into the American female mind)! Never has been, never will be! So everyone can’t afford Giorgio Armani (blame your illustrious HR people for that, with their wasteful spending on parties for the anniversary of Mao’s first pimple and CEOs firing 100,000 so they can buy another yacht).
You prejudge everyone you meet? Just wait until your Herpes kicks in, and you come to work sick and slobbishly dressed, you will probably be tarred and feathered out of your job, because you didn’t dress-up because “Stalin-Joe” CEO said so.
I happen to love fashion, I enjoy looking at Vogue and Lucky magazine to see the latest fashions. I also work in New York, which is known for the fashionistas. That being said, I think its naive to believe that your appearance doesnt matter….it does, like it or not. I see employees all day long, I have vendors visit often and I also represent the company in various meetings. If I don’t look put together, it will reflect on what people think of me and the company I work for, so I care about my appearance and I like to look good. However, that doesnt mean that I spend a lot to do so. I’m fortunate enough to enjoy shopping and clipping coupons and I love the thrill of paying nearly nothing for fabulous clothing. Here’s a sample of my last 2 shopping trips….I snagged a fabulous Talbot coat worth $200+ for $20, a pair of Ann Taylor slacks that fit me great worth $120 for $20, a pair of drop dead gorgeous pair of leopard print pointed shoes worth $160 for $20, I got some fabulous jewelry work $150 for $20….You guessed it, I have a $20 limit on most of my items….I’m fortunate that I’m average size (8 in pants, medium in shirts and 7 in shoes). But you dont need to spend a lot of money to look good with well made quality clothing….appears counts for most of us who are in the corporate world, maybe not so much for those who are not in front of the public often.
I’m probably lucky I worked in Midwest offices–even what was considered a relatively “strict” dress code (no denim except in the field, no casual Friday) was easy to meet. Even suits, which were rarely required, I could buy at Lane Bryant or Sears (depending on my size at the time) and I would look pretty much as good as anyone else.
So in my case, I don’t think this “dress code” (such as it was) disadvantaged women. We could have worn the same shapeless polo and khakis as the guys, I just hate that look so I would buy “dress” shirts at Target or Penney’s (or Lands’ End on clearance, love Lands’ End dress shirts) and dress pants at Penney’s or Sears and be pretty well set. I know in the big city or at a big law firm or something, though, it would have been a lot more costly. Then again they probably wouldn’t have hired me in the first place because I’m fat.
Unless people are dealing with the general public why even bother? Let them show up in shorts and tank tops if they are ready to work and be productive. Give us employees who are happy, comfortable, and productive and we can make some sh!t happen! I have come to the conclusion they do just to show they can, sort of like making your cat chase a laser dot.
Just to be clear though I dress nicely on a budget which is easy for a man. I rarely pay more than $50 for pants or shirts, mens shoes are all timeless who can complain. My wife can easily dump $1500 into an outfit with shoes, comfortable high heels are worth their weight in gold if you didn’t already know.
On the other side, the male chauvinist pig side, I am all for High heels, pencil skirts and form fitting blouses they are good for my morale ;o)
I hope everyone had a great Christmas and New Year.
I wore suits to work, even though we were business casual because
1. Khakis make my ass look a mile wide and
2. I might not have a chest, but I have really good legs and
3. Our female VP dressed like crap and had lousy legs, which might not have been the best long-term strategy for my career, as we already did not like each other, but oh well
I did not spend a lot of money to do this, though. I got my suits on eBay, with the rule being no more than $70 a suit. And they were cute, not banker suits.
What is it with the company logo shirts in men’s sizes only that I had to wear at the booth at the trade shows? I had to cut the bottom half of that thing off (see: Khakis, ass, mile wide) and it’s not like I’m petite. Our vendor didn’t make women’s sizes, according to the guy who ordered the shirts. You know — because it’s so rare for women to be in the workforce these days.
As an artist and as a children’s therapist, casual is the standard. I would have NEVER made it in Corporate America.
My art days in the studio are the best! I can wear what I want and it doesn’t matter how crappy it looks. People who stop by are in awe of me, no matter what I wear.
I have my own style of “painted on jeans”.
We artists have a saying. “There are two kinds of clothes. Clothes with paint on them, and clothes with paint on them.”
We starve, but we wear what we want.
Right out of college I worked in HR for a videogame company. There was no dress code to speak of. People actually viewed you with suspicion if you dress up (“Are you interviewing somewhere else?”). I lived in jeans and shirts, which was fine since both our target audience/customers as well as other people in the industry also all dress casually, so we did not need to impress with Guccis or what-have-yous. It was comfortable and made getting dressed everday really easy. Although a lot of people did it, I still refrained from wearing flip-flops or shorts.
Now I work in a more corporate environment. Although it is mostly business casual, the occasional jeans in the middle of the week is not really frowned-upon, which is nice. I have never been asked to wear a suit, and I avoided buying one even for the interview. I guess I did not get the memo but even here I have worn my (nice) flats and pencil skirts…
One of the things I miss most about working in the asphalt lab was the dress code. Jeans everyday. The only rule was no short sleeves or holes in your clothes, in case you spilled on yourself. I used to buy my work clothes at goodwill. Just throw them away when they got too dirty.
You gonna hate this term. I hate it. But, you gotta dress for success. Yep. It’s true. No one will take you seriously if wear dockers, boat shoes, and an old navy knit shirt.
If you wear nice clothes – like a good suit. People take you seriously.
So if you are in a corporate gig – dress up.
As Clinton Kelly says “What you wear tells the world how you expect to be treated”
I work in Corporate America and wear suits everyday. I am not sure if our dress code is business casual or not. I see wide range of looks, minus jeans that is. I do know that I am given immediate credibility based on clothes. People assume based on the suit that I know what I am doing, which I do, and that I am always busy and productive, which I am not.
I saw this in a fab presentation on culture and the policy of no policies at Netflix:
There is no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one has come to work naked lately.
Perfect.
There’s something about dressing up for work that impacts my psyche. A perfectly tailored pair of pants and jacket, with a great necklace and my hair done with some effort, I feel like my personality gets a huge lift- smarter, prepared to take on serious shit. I loved dressing up for court appearances at my old job in social services, and love dressing well for my gigs in journalism and marketing these last few years. It totally balances the bathrobe and yoga pants look I’m rockin’ at home most days.
And I wonder (as horrible as this might sound) if all of you “more experienced” professional women out there have enjoyed the success you have due in SOME part to the well put together (if expensive) wardrobe you rocked early on….
I’ve always taken the “Einstein” approach to a business wardrobe– a closet full of a dozen of the exact same outfit– and wore it everyday. As long as it was clean– people don’t even notice. Guy’s don’t give a shit what you wear– but the girly-girls sit around and judge each other so much, they can’t get away with it. Oh well—-
Corporate dress codes (however basic) are necessary for clarification otherwise, some nitwit will turn up in flipflops or coochie-cutters.
Do they disproportionately burden women? -Nope. I.e. Just like some men, if a woman cares that little about clothing, she can also choose to rotate the same 2 suits/pants with different shirts. As long as those 2 suits are clean & appropriate, no one will think any less of her.
That said, I love to dress up but I realize that I can look great on a little or a lot of money; same effect/# of compliments eitherway. How I look is an extension of feeling good; I’d run crazy having to wear the same sh*t everyday. Likewise, I love it when others are dressed up, it improves my mood! I don’t think ppl realize how good they look (esp men in suits) with little effort. Needless to say, I hate working in zero-dress code offices and I pray fervently that my next gig will be in a dressy environment.
Do you refuse to wear something out of principle? -Yep; artificial diamonds only, but I’ll rock non-estranged species fur (i eat meat anyway).
Do you always wear an article of clothing to make a statement? -Yep. E.g. Sometimes I go double on neckties, depending on what the dressup angels say.
Look that body is the only one you’ve got, so dress it up and take it out!
@Bill… I don’t say this often (because I’m not really the type), but I will pray for you. Seriously… I will. Pretty black n white, angry statement from someone who claims to dislike such behavior.
Back on topic… I do believe women get a raw deal on dress, but it is partially self inflicted due to the fashion bar being constantly elevated and women willing to pay. It is where it is now and it will be hard to revert.
I do believe that attire, for both men and women, could be a tiebreaker if all else is equal. Additionally, I feel more confident when I’m looking fierce.
The conversation about what dress should be mandated in what environment is a valid one. In my opinion, there are still environments where a suit is important. But perhaps those organizations should provide a clothing perk (like a car allowance) to get behind the culture they are going for.
One more note to Bill… we are all prejudged to some degree. Dress is a component of this that you can control. If you choose not too, you lose the opportunity to represent yourself in a favorable manner.
I have to disagree that this is a gender issue. Personally I wear a suit to work with an open neck shirt. The suits…..they cost me between £300 and £500 a pop and the shirts about £50. I work with women who may often wear a pair of trousers and a blouse or a skirt or dress in winter. Their outfit could total between £50 and £100 or maybe less. So is that a gender issue? No, it is a choice.
I wear what I wear because I feel comfortable and confident in it, but also because I want to look the part. Sure it doesn’t change my ideas or thoughts, but it might make people who don’t know me take a second look and listen for that minute longer. We have no dress code, so ultimately I could wear fairly much anything.
@Bill – Stay off the M&Ms chum….
Lucky for me, I work in a manufacturing facility….my office is no where near the factory, but everyone still wears jeans and target cotton t-shirts. We dress up every now and then, but then people notice and the next day it is back to normal. I don’t think I could work in a place with a formal dress code. Our dress code is kind of like high school—no short skirts, no little tank tops, no shirts with drugs or alcohol. It is a beautiful thing.
I think formal dress codes are unfair to women in particular. If you watch a movie with “business” people from the 80′s, 90′s or now….how do you know what decade it is from? From what the women are wearing. The men could slap on that same shirt, slacks and tie and look perfectly normal. Women’s fashions change every six months.
My good friend is a lawyer and whenever she sees a suit sale—she stocks up. Only to have to stock up six months later because her “new” suits are no longer in fashion. It annoys her that the men around her do not have to do the same. It’s not like she has a hundred grand in loans to pay off or anything…
@Geekette – My point is that an employee that doesn’t have the sense to not wear flip flops or coochie cutters to a place of business is not someone you should want to employ.The dress code is actually hurting you by keeping them employed.
As a point of disclosure I didn’t make in my earlier comment, I prefer to wear dress clothes to work, regardless of the casual “policy”.
I love clothes and to off set the sometimes high prices, I shop consignment. I’ve never been a name brand type person; if the article of clothing looks good on me and matches at least two other items in my closet, I buy it. I do, however, drop the name brand names I’ve scored at consignment shops & Goodwill.
But I do believe women are at a disadvantage; so many options, so much money.
I love the casual dress code approach. That’s what my employer has established. But I wonder, does the way a person dress affect their level of professionalism? I see sloppy dress and sloppy approaches to work.
I think Laurie is right on target when she says wardrobe is a feminist issue. Take a close look most official corporate dress codes – notice that most of the guidelines and restrictions speak to women’s wear?
The only limitation for guys: no sweats, no shorts, no torn t-shirts. And bathe every once in a while.
I get that on a basic level, it’s a matter of sensible judgement. (One older woman I worked with used to say: Never wear a skirt so high you need TWO hairdos.)
But I think there are always two dress codes at work. The “official” one, which outlines the basic do’s and don’t, and the unofficial one.
The unofficial fashionista metric is one we all get assessed by, whether we’re aware of it or not. Of course, the yardstick really depends on where you work, too.
I used to work at a company where there was an epidemic of guys wearing white tube socks with black dress shoes. I was practically Tom Ford in comparison. I went from Tom Ford to Wilford Brimley in my next job, because I didn’t have a Hugo Boss suit, wear all black or shun carbohydrates.
Most guys do have it pretty easy in terms of shopping options, but as a larger-sized man, I will tell you it’s not easy for EVERY guy. I’d love to find simple, basic, sleek shirts and pants. But most places that carry larger sizes for guys pick ugly patterns that look like the wallpaper in your doctor’s office. I don’t want to look like one of Tony Soprano’s henchmen. Also, pleated pants should be outlawed. They make guys look like they’re wearing a diaper.
Corporate dress codes are lame. My husband works in a corporate dress code environment, and what does everyone wear? KHAKIS!
We switched to casual, and I’m so glad for it. I haven’t sent anything to dry cleaning in months, and it’s saved me a bunch of money.
We do have a solid rule for our corporate casual policy. That is, we treat our employees like adults. And guess what? They do dress like adults and wear appropriate items for client meetings. What a concept. And even in jeans, people still look put together.
I disagree with you that ballet flats are inappropriate. These crazy-high heels are WAY inappropriate, but even a 2-inch heel will cause me issues. If my back and/or knees aren’t killing me, then I’m trying to trip on the stairs. Forget it. That said, my flats/boots have to be as fab as my fondly-remembered heels were, so my husband distracts me with Starbucks every time we near a shoe section.
I’ll tell you what is inappropriate at work, though. UGG boots! Stop the madness! And leggings should ONLY be worn as one would wear tights. They’re warmer in the winter, so I wear them, but with skirts and boots. NOT as pants. Please, people. Nobody wants to see all your business.
Call it west coast, call it Gen Y but your post (specifically the amount of money you spent on clothes) made me ill. Outside of my suit and three jackets, there is nothing in my wardrobe over $100.
I’ve never had a problem with it because dressing inexpensively has allowed me to network and build relationships with people who value ideas and results versus wealth and status. Working for a company that doesn’t require me to change my wardrobe completely means they get me for a lower price. You want to add 20k to your offer so I can wear a suit every day?
I will say that career choice is an important factor in that too. My wife is in charge of production at a winery. Before that, she was a researcher. She’s never had a wardrobe problem. I’ve worked from home and I’ve worked for smaller companies.
I love this topic and the comments because I see I am not the only who cut off the bottom of those stupid company logo golf shirts to tuck them into ill fitting khaki pants so I could “match” all the men in our trade show booth.
I am not the only one who worked at a bank with an 8 page, very detailed dress code that listed the size of earrings we could wear.
I am not the only one who believes I make an impression on my clients and my management by how I present myself, and that means what I wear.
I have the best of both worlds – a home office and corporate meetings with C-level execs in a very conservative industry. I don’t own a pantsuit. I wear suits (skirts only) and minimal accessories when I meet with clients. And I feel at the top of my game when I am dressed for the part.
I notice a difference in my psyche when I work from home in my ratty sweat pants.
This is a great post. Thought provoking.
I find casual wear is much more productive for my staff. I put my desk by the exit. No one dares to leave before I do because of my Speedo and cropped mesh tank-top. To keep things interesting, I occasionally dye my back hair different colors.
(Actually, I work in a business environment. Dark pants. bluewhitetan shirts. ties.)
I’m with many others: presentation is important. If I were to show up to any job in my flannel pajamas, I wouldn’t be taken seriously.
I think women are screwed on cost because women come in many more shapes and sizes, so they have to take what they can get whenever they find something they like. I had a girlfriend who was 5’3″ and a size 0 (she ate more than me though, and I’m 5’10″). She found most of her clothes in the children’s section. Finding professional looking clothes was impossible, and when she did find any she had to pay a pretty penny for it. Men, meanwhile, just have to worry about length, size, and fit. We don’t have to worry about chest-waist-hip-thigh ratios. The sales are pathetic compared to what guys can get.
My input on what to do:
A friend of mine who is a successful car salesman (and very presentation oriented, perhaps because he is gay) said he gets $80 suits at J.C. Penny. Why? Because they beat up their suits constantly. In the northeast, they’re constantly in and out of snow, salt, mud, and around cars. It still works for him, so you may want to give your local dept. store a try. No, the fabric won’t be as soft or high quality; it won’t be as nice as Hickey Freeman (*drool*) but if it gets the job done and you’re not in investment banking, check it out.
Geekette mentioned that people don’t care if someone wears the same outfit multiple times. She is correct.
For me, my brother happened upon a J.Crew outlet store that was having a huge sale. I went there to shop: $400 later I had a new (and badly needed) wardrobe that I could wear for work and nice casual use. We figure the retail value was at least $1200 for 4 khakis, 10 shirts, a belt, and three sweaters. Keep an eye out for sales. If you see a good sale, abuse it. Bring a fashion adviser. If your credit is decent and you really like a specific store, sign up for their credit card.
And–dare I say it–you should figure out when you need to iron
I got a $20 Sunbeam and it’s fantastic.
I’ve been lucky so far to work mostly in offices where you dressed for meetings (read: jeans most days). The focus was more on getting the work done than how you were dressed doing it. That said, as I’ve gotten older I’ve definitely noticed that there is a difference between the people wearing $75 outfits to interviews and those wearing finely tailored, expensive (looking, at least) clothes – the $75 crowd doesn’t seem to want to get noticed, and they usually succeed.
As far as cost differentials between men and women, I think the costs are actually pretty level. For every $75 guy, there’s a $75 girl wearing clothes from Ross and Payless. For every $15k girl, there’s a $15k guy wearing Armani and Allen Edmonds. The big difference is that women’s fashion changes constantly, whereas men tend to buy classic looks that last longer. I’ve had a pair of dress shoes for ten years and still get compliments on them.
You want to read a dress code? Check out Disney’s appearance code for employees. Women can only have one piercing in each ear (I’m out – I’ve got two in each ear). Makeup must be tasteful and low keyed in “neutral” colors (again, out since I like to use a light green shimmer). Men, no facial hair, except for a small moustache that does not extend past the corners of your mouth…that’s right, you can look like Hitler, but you can’t grow a beard or goatee. Welcome to the happiest place on earth!
Seriously though, I do think that “professional” dress codes unfairly burden women. Working in a business casual environment evens the playing field. I do most of my shopping at Target and Old Navy and I am at the “high end” of fashion in my office. I have two expensive suits ($250 on sale) for client meetings with different shirts to wear underneath. I buy my shoes from Target, DSW or Famous Footwear on sale – so nice shoes for low prices. I look nice and professional.
But applying makeup and fixing my hair to present a huge TIME burden that men are not faced with. I would not be considered as nice looking or professional if I didn’t take the time to apply makeup – and FYI guys, the subtle, natural beauty makeup look actually takes MORE time to apply than the garish trowel-it-on look. Not to mention the cost of the makeup…
I Dryell at home or buy clothes that can be machine washed to avoid drycleaning costs and I use fake tanner with skirts to avoid pantyhose because they are the work of the devil and cost a ton if you don’t want to look like you’re in an orange sausage casing.
Ta-da!
PS Women, if you NEED to wear hose buy thigh-highs. They may look uncormfortable but they’re actually not bad and if you run one leg you only need to switch out the one hose instead of throwing out the whole pair…saves $$$.
@ Phillip – people wearing $75 outfits look bad????? Right now I’m wearing rayon-blend black pants I got on-sale for $25, and a long and lean fitted sweater I got on sale for $15, with shoes I got on salse for $20 – total cost $60 and I look professional enough to meet with the President of our company.
I think we do need to put the Vogue down and reassess our priorities people!
Humans judge books by their cover, even when we think we don’t. It’s a glitch in our human nature, one that’s not fair, perpetuates double standards, and generates waste.
But, until we can learn to train our brains to stop rejecting leaders because they are too short/frumpy/yellow teethed/bald/large-chested/or some combination thereof, it’s also… life.
@class factotum I HATE company logo shirts! Talk about robbing an employee of their personality AND turning us into schlubs. It doesn’t look professional, it looks like “I don’t work to work there!”
Much depends on industry and location. I worked for a company where if you were meeting a client maybe you could bump it up and put on a polo style shirt and nice pair of shorts all the way up to coat and tie required. @ my current company we are Business Casual with jeans Fridays, at least in the Corporate Office. I only where a suit if I have to go to a site. Even then I don’t usually wear a tie, 10 years of prep-school clothing aversion. Well that and a disproportionatly think neck (seriously if I want a shirt that I can button the top button and that I am not swimming in, I have to have it custom made).
But to answer your question I agree that women in general are disproportionately burdened. Some of it depends on industry/company location. I have worked places where you were expected to dress for success, and that was expensive. You can’t get a decent suit for cheap (sure used, but that just doesn’t work for me personally). A nice but not extravagant suit, a custom made shirt, belt, tie and shoes could easily cross the 1k threshold.
I always get a little riled when I hear about companies and organizations that have modesty policies, tacit or explicit, that only apply to women — nothing low cut, no cleavage, no bare arms, no skirts shorter than whatever. Not that I think we should all be prancing around in hot pants, but seriously, what year is this? I know plenty of female peers who have been asked to “cover up” because a hint of a glance of a curvature of a breast is visible when they lean way over to put paper in the copier. Is that so distracting? Are we so alarmed by the female body? Is it a cause for alarm?
I once worked for a delightful and hilarious woman who was a little menopausal. She once took off her jacket; she was wearing a tank top underneath. It was hot in the office, and she was hot all the time anyway.
When the CEO happened to walk by our isolated corner of desks (a rare occasion), he asked her to put her jacket back on. She flat-out said no. He didn’t really know what to do. They both awkwardly laughed about it, and when he walked away, she said, “I guess I just like to be my own kind of modest.”
I suppose the argument can be made that men never get to wear tank tops, low-cut shirts or short skirts in the office anyway, and women’s fashion requires us to lay some ground rules. I just really feel like I rarely see a dress code so flagrantly violated that it would require a rule in the first place.
@Amy Could those policies have anything to do with sexual harassment lawsuits? If a lawsuit costs the company several thousand dollars just to defend an allegation, I think they’d rather put in stupid policies–which they may know good and well are stupid–rather than risk the cost.
Men can’t wear tank tops because they don’t shave their armpits :p
Wow, obviously an interesting topic given the number of comments on this post!
I think dress codes are a waste of time – HR and management’s time could (and should) be spent discussing other issues. I think people should govern themselves on attire. If it’s not acceptable, there should be managers there having candid conversations with employees about how their dress is affecting the way they are perceived, their performance, or both.
Interesting topic. I would like to wear jeans and my favorite hoodie everyday, but unfortunately my clients wouldn’t likely hire me (bastards! kidding clients, kidding).
I think that there always needs to be a formal dress code in place to prevent people walking into work half naked or just looking ridiculous. That being said, I do believe that some dress codes are too restrictive of what employees can wear. I’d love to wear jeans and sneakers everyday to work because my comfort isn’t going to affect my productivity. I don’t think it’s necessary to wear high heels and uptight suits if I’m not meeting with an executive or client.
Brilliant thread here. I think dress standards are loosening up — back when I started, pantyhose was mandatory and jeans were unthinkable. The great thing is that the lines in the sand are fading. Athletic wear crossed over into casual; casual is seeping into the workplace; work wear can now transition into evening; fabrics are now multi-seasonal. The more visionary designers and mass retailers are creating hybrids that can be worn on practically any occasion. Rather than head-to-toe designer logos (crass), the trend now is to move towards combining: vintage with new, designer with chain store labels, handmade with mass-produced. It makes sense economically for the consumer, not to mention it’s liberating. Dress codes will soon be, if they are not already, obsolete.
So interesting I’ll chime in twice today.
Humans in groups become idiots without some type of structure. How loose or rigid that structure should be can be debated, but we cannot be relied upon to remain sane on our own. It is in our nature to push the limits until someone drops the hammer. 2 inches of cleavage becomes 4 inches if nobody cries foul. Before you know it we have T backs and baggie jeans all over the place, or hot pants and cut off tees, depending on your coworkers age. Daisy Dukes and Girbaud anyone? No? Is this mic on?
I think dress codes are necessary to keep things relatively in line and standardized. Like other things, it is also a CYA policy guarding against all you people chiming in out there (you know who you are).
I don’t much have a problem with a properly matched, well conceived code. I’m not much of a conformist in the sense that everyone should where the company logo shirts, but I think you are part of a team where you work and should dress to a similar standard in lieu of a uniform. If you chaff at that, why work there? Go be the HR person at the goth tatoo shop down the street, file your teet into fangs and get your groove thing on.
Again, I thank the local Jesus-type entity that I’m in a virtual company. I could not take MYSELF seriously if I had to dress to impress someone.
Dry-cleaning defys any logical test I put to it, so I don’t do it. That’s more or less how I approach any professional situation, so I’m sure I’m making the right choice for me and my career. For now.
I have worked in a suit-and-tie environment, and I’ve worked in an “anything goes” environment. Currently, I work somewhere in the middle. I hate khakis, I LOATHE Polo shirts, and I despise how uncomfortable summer is where I live. Sweat stains are NOT good fashion statement.
I would LOVE to look like Don Draper (from Mad Men) everyday; however, in this economy, I do not have extra $$ for fancy suits, and shirts and ties from Pink.
On one hand, psychologically, I feel a lot more professional when I wear a shirt and tie to work. Or if I throw a scarf around my neck and/or a sport coat.
On the other hand, when I am in my office working on dumb spreadsheets that no one will ever look at, I’d prefer to be in my faded Blondie t-shirt, jeans, and a pair of vintage boots.
Sadly, we are business-to-professional-casual year-round. Whatever that means…Hrmph.
You are right on the money with this one, Lauren! Clothing absolutely is a feminist issue.
Career #1 – Police Officer – Wore exactly what I was told I could wear, even down to the length of sleeve at any given time of year. I did have a little choice in footwear but everyone ended up wearing the same footwear, anyway, because it got the job done the best. Uniforms are the great leveler. Everyone should be required to wear a uniform to all jobs every day and it would stop this debate cold. Oops – I think that is called communism.
Career #2 – Attorney/Law Professor – I got yelled at once at my law firm for not wearing a suitable suit to work, even though I wasn’t going to court or anything that day. I spend all of my income on clothes, just like you. At that time, women couldn’t even wear pantsuits. Being a law professor was a little better, but all of the professors dressed up for work because we tried to teach the students that the judges they were going to appear in front of demanded it. I knew of a judge that threw a lawyer (man) out of court because his shirt was blue and not white.
Career #3 – HR Manager – I wore whatever I wanted to wear to work whenever I wanted to. That was really the best part of the job, I think. I worked in a small industrial facility and we had one dress code rule (which I created) throughout the plant: clothes had to be reasonably clean and not ripped to shreds. I still spent too much money on clothes, though.
Holy crap. I need to answer this in chunks to save my fingers.
@Frugalista I think it’s unfortunate that work is a line-item. I’ve lobbied for a tax deduction for clothes for YEARS and no one listens.
@Christine I’m pretty sure that we all enter the professional workforce playing ‘dress up’ and blowing lots of money. I don’t miss those days. I still spend lots of $$ on clothes, too. I just buy more expensive yoga pants.
@Mary Ellen I only had to be asked this question once in 1997 before I got the point. “Exactly what color is your hair?”
@Bethany One’s attitude on their dress really does reflect what they value. That’s true. When I worked at Pfizer, I grew my hair so I could sleep late and pull it back into a ponytail. Priorities.
@Natacha very sensible.
@ScottS I looked really great while Kemper Insurance waltzed its way into bankruptcy. I should have worn jeans more often.
@Can’tName Why talk about jeans day? Why just let people wear what they want and hold them accountable for working?
@Scott You asked a great question. I think women judge one another much more on the basis of clothes than men judge women on clothes. My husband said the same thing to me and you guys are right. I wanted to dress better than my female boss to show that I’m more fertile, prettier, and my boobs are bigger. (Ha ha ha.) All kidding aside, I have no idea who I was trying to impress. Maybe myself. http://sadtrombone.com
Excellent piece of writing Laurie.
My two cents: I’m one of the lucky ones. Clothing is a non-issue for me. I wear scrubs that are laundered by by place of employment. I could come to work in my pajamas and no one would notice. The funny thing is, most the female employees (and some fashion-sensitive men) don’t like the look or feel of the “provided” scrubs, so despite the cost, they go out and buy a slew of new ones every other month. Its a silly waste of time and money, so I think.
So while I believe that you have a mature perspective on clothing, the majority of women do not. They remain fashion obsessed and have harmfully set a high standard of dress that demises not only their pocketbooks, but their smarter, more frugal sisters as well. Women remain their own worst enemies. Why is that?
@Elle Awesome comments and totally frustrating that lipstick, clothes, and make-up matter in both corporate America and the world of academia. I know many people who believe that educators having it easier when it comes to looks, performance, expectations — but in my experience, the academic world is so frustrating because it’s like an inefficient & dysfunctional business. You’re wearing jackets and lipstick but you’re not being paid like a corporate professional. Ugh!
@Dale I remember when Al Gore was VP and appeared on Letterman in 1993ish. He was wearing a too-tight suit and looked noticeably chunky. I’m like, this guy is VP — can this guy wear an outfit that fits hit tummy? Totally unfair.
@Robin If I’m thankful for anything, it’s the women before me who broke the pants barrier.
@Bill That is the craziest comment of 2010. You had me at herpes.
@Latina There is nothing about my body that is average, and thus, I spend double. Boo.
@SpacedCowGirl Lady, yeah, you’re fat. Huge. Ginormous. Also, I used to live near a LandEnd outlet in Chicago and scored the best pajama pants there. Sigh. I miss the midwest.
@JohnC My husband is 14 inches taller than I am. When I wear heels, I’m still looking at his nose hair. Nevertheless, he’s on your side on that one.
@Class I’ve done the cutting-of-the-shirt. Ridiculous. I like khaki Eddie Bauer capri cargo pants, or as I like to call it, my dowdy summer attire.
@BZ Everything I own is covered in cat hair.
One of my first jobs was in corporate financial services where it was v normal to dress to impress – although i was on a low salary i spent a lot of money on trying to look good. Somehow there was this correlation between your dress and your intelligence/capability/professionalism. My next job was in a hi-tech company which gave me a whole new perspective – highly intelligent and v capable senior staff were rocking around in jeans and t shirts. On my first day I turned up in my short skirt/jacket suit with high heels … I think that was the last day I wore them! Now, in a client facing job I am always in jeans and a smart top. No more suits. I’m a “knowledge worker” which means my contribution to the organisation comes from my brain not my suit! Of course, it’s only when you are confident in your own abilities that you have the confidence to buck the trend.
@gHRunt You can wear the pencil skirts and ballet flats. Ditch the footless tights, though.
@suz asphalt lab. love it.
@Glennlist While it’s true I won’t take you seriously because of your boat shoes, it’s because boat shoes are very 1984.
@Ann do know that I am given immediate credibility based on clothes. People assume based on the suit that I know what I am doing, which I do, and that I am always busy and productive, which I am not. I know, this is why I dressed up. I’m the least productive woman you know.
@Amanda Hilarious.
@alex And I wonder (as horrible as this might sound) if all of you “more experienced” professional women out there have enjoyed the success you have due in SOME part to the well put together (if expensive) wardrobe you rocked early on…. SNAP. Maybe true.
@MattyMat I know so many dudz like you.
@Geekette some nitwit will turn up in flipflops or coochie-cutters. How about we fire that nit wit?
@Ryan Don’t worry about Bill. Thank you for the comment, though.
@theHRD Why do you want to look the part when you can be the part like me?
@InkedHR That’s such a good point about movies/fashion and women. So true.
@Lisa I stopped doing consignment when I started fearing bed bugs. I dunno. You can get bed bugs in new clothes, too, I guess.
@Patrick So insightful, and PS, you are my Tom Ford.
@Haria No, ballet flats are fine. Skip the leggings. IT’S THE FUCKING LEGGINGS WITH EVERYTHING. I hate it. Also, amen x2 on the UGGS.
@Lance I got paid to dress up — that’s what happens when you get promoted & shit & you’re asked to give feedback & deal with officers & leaders & whatnot. That $20K or $30K or even $40K raise comes with expectations. Doesn’t stop me from complaining about it, though. Never does.
@Donlyn I worked in GMP facilities and I’ve had that dress code. I don’t miss it even though it was for safety.
@CAC
@Sales Back hair. Gross.
@econopete I’d agree that an iron is mandatory for most guys. Seriously. Follow pete’s lead on this one.
@Philip I want classic fashion for women, too. But I don’t think there’s a 1:1 correlation between men and women, though.
@Low I don’t do dryell. I don’t know why — because everyone swears by it. I should try it. Also, I was invited to the Disney Institute and skipped it. Maybe I should go and learn more?
@Jason You are so judgy.
@Corey I’m glad you agree that women are disproportionately burdened. You’re sensible. Can we do anything about this?
@Amy I guess I just like to be my own kind of modest. Thank you, I love this.
@Jason I’d like to see you in a hoodie.
@Adriana Why punish everyone for one person’s mistake in judgment? And really, is it a mistake? Or maybe a lack of funds or access to “appropriate” clothes? Or a cultural difference?
@Alicia From your lips to HR’s ears.
@Vikki Dry cleaning is so toxic, too. I hate it, but I do it.
@chasing Hrmph, indeed!
@Joan Why aren’t you working on a career book?
@Daisycutter Happy new year, by the way. I have no idea why women are their own worst enemies. I hear you, though. It can be a vicious cycle of judgment — but men are judging me, too, so I always tried to keep that in mind.
@Antonia Knowledge worker = yoga pants? No make up? No bras? I’m a knowledge worker, too.
Love this post Laurie.
I refuse to wear panty-hose, ever.
I live in South/Central Texas where in summer it gets up to 102 – 114 degrees. Ages ago, my company understood that and panty-hose were never required.
When we were purchased by a large “nationwide” insurance company, they instituted a ridiculous dress code, even for people with no customer contact and yes, it included hose. I looked at my new HR VP and said, “Just so you understand, I refuse to wear panty-hose. It’s not going to happen – ever. So, if you want to skip all the write-ups and fire me now, go ahead.” Needless to say he didn’t. Was that stupid? Not for me. I have never been a fan of nonsensical rules (God bless my parents).
What was interesting to me was that the new parent company was more focused on cloning our remote office into a stepford wife mirror of themselves than they were on addressing the more critical issues of assimilating a new company. This one change added more angst among the employees who were already stressed about being RIF’d, loss of benefits and all the other muck that goes with a merger. The parent company missed a fantastic opportunity to win the loyalty of this 2,000 employee group because of their lack of interest in understanding their unique culture.
I am also one of the lucky ones where casual, not business casual but casual casual is the norm. More like “anything goes” within reason. As far as I know no one has ever been disciplined for their attire. It’s a non profit, educational based organization where we rarely have customers visit. We even mention this to people when they come in for interviews. We don’t expect someone to come in a suit for an interview. We are very proud of the fact that we promote individuality in our employees and we have the culture to match. We have a high number of employees who have some type of art degree ranging from fine arts (myself included), writing, drama, music, etc. Out company seems to attract these types. I personally enjoy seeing how people dress, mainly because it reflects their personality. I usually have different colors of highlights in my hair that can be anywhere from blue to green to purple (my part time job is as a hairdresser) and that has never been an issue. Once in a while a director may ask us to “take it up a notch” because someone may be visiting. There are never any complaints when this happens and I think it’s fun for some people to dress up creatively,once and awhile. People do comment all the time on how happy they are to not have to worry about wearing corporate clothing. They truly appreciate the fact that they have a choice.
I almost forgot about this. When I was laid off, I worked at a home improvment store. They had a pretty lax dress code. One of the few rules was that you could only wear shorts if you worked in the garden center. If you worked inside the store, you had to wear pants or a skirt. In protest, one of my male coworkers would wear a kilt. The dress code never said only women could wear skirts.
I worked for a Chief HR Officer for 5 years. She had worked 25 years in the insurance industry. She had on a new and very expensive outfit every day. Her life was born with a silver spoon in her mouth. Nothing on her body except for Ann Taylor or other brands that I can pronounce. I always though she was trying to make up for something she was lacking. I will never forget the day she complimented my outfit and I annouced to her that it was an Ann Taylor jacket from my favorite Salvation Army store! Her face clearly shown how mortified she was. lol I can contribute to my 401(k) when I land another job, I can buy nice gifts for the people I love….she’s too busy looking for her next $500 outfit – selfish I’d say…mmm sounds corporate to me. She can keep it – right along with that silver spoon that’s pointing straight out of her face. My next job will be at a non-profit with folks who try to make the most of their limited funding and aren’t looking at their feet admiring there $300 shoes.
@Laurie, when I hired into my last job I weighed about 80 lbs. more. I have definitely been able to tell the difference in how people treat me at work when I am larger and smaller. I know what you mean, that I am on the large side of “normal” now (though technically obese) so it is a little dramatic to play the fat card. But if it’s between me and a thin, attractive female engineer with highlights and makeup with equal qualifications, of course they’re going to hire her, and that’s just sort of the way things are. However, please nobody give me any of that crap about how it’s legitimate to discriminate against fat candidates because their “lack of concern for their health” says something about their character. Just admit you are an anti-fat, sexist jerk. You aren’t the only one.
I will admit that in the absence of a dress code, I tend to let things slide a little. I was trying to follow the “dress for the job you want” guideline in my last job (as I mentioned, the bar was pretty low though) at first and went to work in sensible heels and makeup every day. The makeup part in particular goes WAY against the grain for me. But soon it was jeans and “dressy” t-shirts like everyone else. I also run into trouble because I start to feel like if it is appropriate to wear jeans and work boots in the field or to a manufacturing facility, then it is appropriate to wear them when I *might* go to one of those places, and then it somehow becomes “appropriate” to wear something like that in the office.
I don’t think I ever truly crossed a line of appropriateness though–I remember a friend talking about a co-op student they had at their firm who started dressing worse and worse and eventually wore especially crappy field clothes to a meeting, a no-no even if the outfit had been clean and presentable (I mean, sure, such a rule is kind of pretentious for a co-op who works primarily in the field, but if their dress code was anything like ours then this would have been explicitly spelled out). She described the outfit consisting of cut-off sweatpant shorts and a men’s undershirt that was, quote, “tight, yet stained.” bwaaahahaha. I still laugh out loud thinking about this description.
For everyone asking why women are their own worst enemy, this is not a question of “blaming” either men OR women, but this question always makes me kind of prickly. It seems obvious that there is some larger societal thing going on here other than “women are by nature catty, judgy, and hate other women.” I think women learn that one strategy to survive and get ahead in life is to make themselves attractive to men–there is still this uncomfortable balance in many workplaces of looking professional, but still having to look “feminine”/pleasing to the power structure, which is usually male. It’s getting better, but some remnants remain, hence the fact that women are required to do their hair and makeup, and possibly wear heels, to look “professional” even though that should really have nothing to do with it.
I completely identify with the weight (and self-esteem)fluctuations as it relates to my wardrobe. However, many women never get past the high school crap when it comes to clothes. I swear the issues with dress in the workplace are residual, much like brown nosing and office cliques.
I really appreciate growing up poor (“its funny now” type of thing), because I learned really early that women who buy expensive clothes have just as much of a weight fluctuation problem as I do. Therefore, you can find great clothes at thrift stores including brand names, if you are so inclined. And when my ass grows out of that awesome outfit, it doesn’t hurt as much to put it back into “circulation” for the next thrifty professional.
Oh, and this has been discussed ad nauseam online, but I would like to work for Starbucks (if they were hiring near me, but they aren’t, so this is all academic) but won’t be able to because I have a nose ring and they don’t allow facial piercings. If my financial situation gets a little more desperate of course I will change my tune, but right now my position is: I will take out my nose ring for a job in an engineering firm, but not for a job at a coffee shop. Shouldn’t my tiny faux upper-class “rebellious” appearance increase their cool quotient anyway?
It’s a freakin’ coffee shop!
I do think they (and some of the commenters at Starbucks Gossip) are a little behind the times with this one. I don’t look twice at someone with a small nose ring or a single tattoo, much less consider them an unemployable freak. It’s sort of run-of-the-mill these days.
Yes it is a great burden more on women than men, especially if working for law firms. There is a great perception on how you should dress if you are in a profession still dominated by men.
I rather wished the government provide income tax credits if the way you dress has an impact on how you conduct work or that you are required to dress a certain way for work purposes.
Working on a college campus, I’m of two minds – we need to set an example for our students, but at the same time, we need them to be able to relate to us.
My students have all seen me in a pinstriped skirt suit at workshops and events. But they’ve also visited my office when I’m dressed as I am today, in an ankle length black skirt, a bell-sleeved top, and a satin choker (it’s COLD). I think they relate to me better because of it.
I also think that companies need to be flexible with their dress codes when the situation warrants. I’m not a big fan of jeans, but on a day like today…they’d sure feel good!
an Ann Taylor jacket from my favorite Salvation Army store!
Oh yes! Consignment/thrift/eBay. Living off the fat of the land. Let everyone else pay retail. I’m happy with secondhand. A $1,000 silk Michael Kors suit for $12 from the Junior League thrift shop? I don’t care that someone else has already worn it. I’ll put the extra $998 toward my mortgage.
i am middle mgmt HR, corp dress code here is ; not wrinkled or torn. and it seems this works for most. the higher the paycheck the higher the quality of non-wrinkle. this applies to most, girls and boys. so that being said i dont out dress or under dress any of them. i am professionally dressed manager- you should take pride, period. seasonal change over cost me a bunch but i tend to go to the outlets like mexx or TH etc. you can get deals and still looking styling. to off set the k’s i cant afford to spend i have a large collection of under things that always match!
clothes do make wo/man but should reflect the company culture.
By personality and by religious belief, I’m frugal and not flashy. I have a couple pairs of slacks and about 7 or 8 blouses, and my entire annual clothing budget is $250. I work on the top floor of a warehouse, though, and many of the people I deal with day-to-day (including sales reps) wear scrubs, or they wear $2k suits (male or female). I own one pair of shoes suitable for work, flat soles, Mary Jane, $24.99 at Fred Meyers.
When I was an elementary teacher, I wore the same clothes. And I was often overdressed compared to my fellow educators.
(P.S., I’m a fat woman, and I find some of the tops I’ve gotten the most compliments on are sweaters I’ve purchased from the men’s section. They’re usually about a quarter what a comparable sweater would cost in the women’s section, and are all wash and wear.)
@Alicia OMG, it’s a sad reminder that companies are so stupid. Dumb choices. Dumb priorities. I’d choose you over pantyhose.
@Hooligan You are lucky. That’s a pretty flexible wardrobe.
@B When you get the not-for-profit job, let me know. I’m with you in spirit on that goal.
@Lori I grew up poor and wearing a uniform because all the money went to school and raising the kids. Thank god for uniforms. I really appreciate them — even as an adult.
@spacedcowgirl I went to get my nose pierced in 1995 and the guy said, “No. No. It would look stupid on you.” Oooooooohkaaaaaaaay.
@Yosie Law firms are notorious for a double standard.
@Guin I think you’re right that it’s important for educators to educate beyond the textbook, but I don’t know about wardrobe lessons.
@class Frugal and savvy. I’m jealous.
@batgrrrl not wrinkled or torn. I like this rule. I think pride is relative, though.
@Mary Sue I am a big fan of men’s v-neck t-shirts. I love them. So much. If I could wear them year-round, I would be happy.
Dress codes are being relaxed and in turn work ethics are being relaxed as well.
The current women’s fashion trends are girly and feminine — lace, ruffles, puff sleeves. Women are wearing these trends in the workplace but it takes away their credibility because they’re dressing like girls and people can’t take them seriously. The way you dress affects the way you think, feel, act, and how others respond to you. I agree with your comment above: Clothing brings credibility.
You bring up some EXCELLENT points. We could talk about this topic all day long…
@Laurie Well we should certainly should try but I don’t know since I think it is a larger issue. Our society is seriously influenced by physical appearance and women are held to a higher standard. I suppose a place to start for HR is to make sure pay and promotions aren’t adversely impacted by gender. Empowerment…
I’ll put the extra $998 toward my mortgage.
Ooops. I mean $988. Math is hard, you know.
@theimageexpert Dress codes are being relaxed and in turn work ethics are being relaxed as well. Wow, that’s a really different perspective. Huh.
@Corey Empowerment. God forbid.
@Class We do math in HR? No way.
@SpacedCowgirl who said: “… But if it’s between me and a thin, attractive female engineer with highlights and makeup with equal qualifications, of course they’re going to hire her, …”
Well, one could argue the flip side: obesity’s on the rise, interviewers are probably fat too, thus likely to pick the fat candidates first (per comfort level), but that reasoning would also be flawed.
I think if all things equal (i.e. all interviewees meet minimum qualifications required), then top qualifier is personality; if interviewers find person A more friendly/engaging than B, then she’s in. B will be ranked lower if she’s perceived as cold/hostile no matter how much thinner/blonder/whatever she is.
We should all be anti-fat, but not anti-people.
“We should all be anti-fat” hahahahahaha. Alrighty then. Love the sinner, hate the sin? Wow.
I will grant you that personality does seem to be a big factor–if I “click” really well with the interviewer and they feel I will fit in well with the office, and the other candidate is awkward and makes the interviewer uncomfortable somehow, then that could override questions of appearance depending on who the interviewer is. I can also assure you with some confidence that it is not yet the reality that poor normal-weight people are routinely discriminated against by vindictive fat interviewers. I will say it again, I have been really fat and merely “overweight” but able to “pass” for “normal” (ha, get all my scare quotes), and there is a noticeable difference in how people respond to me at work. This is off-topic so I won’t keep harping on it after this post, but there were a couple of things there I couldn’t resist responding to.
Clothes make an impression, but it’s not the price tag – it’s about how you hold yourself when you wear them. How else could Cindy Lauper or Madonna have started trends wearing such crazy stuff?
Totally agree with the gender gap in clothing, Laurie, though how much could those Santa sweaters cost that every other woman at my office seems to be wearing from Halloween until, like, now? (I kid, I kid: it’s every fourth woman.) Though I’ve also seen men at my office in T-shirts and jeans working alongside guys in shirts and ties, all at the same job level. I’ve also seen guys rocking shorts, sandals and dark socks (in the summer, of course). We sort of have a dress code of anarchy here.
Not that I’m one to talk — my wardrobe reflects Dale’s and MattyMatt’s perspective, and it suits me fine, even if I get my five pairs of khakis and five of those blue button-down shirts from Target. Though I will add this: ain’t nothing wrong with a man wearing a tie to work if your dress code is at the level of at least button-down shirts, even without a jacket. How much more trouble is it to put on a tie?
I’m also with you on the toxicity of dry cleaners, but my dry cleaner dude introduced me to starch in the collars (how I never knew that before is beyond me) and I’m friggin’ hooked.
@The Icepick My husband gets a little excited when he travels to Japan for work or to the AIChE conference (which he refers to as “the old white guys in suits conference”… yes, he is part of the problem
because he can wear a tie, which he enjoys, and nobody normally wears one in his office. This amuses me as someone who would love to find a job where I could wear jeans and some stupid graphic tee every day. Wait, maybe this is why he is a successful professional and I’m not. 
Laurie — who knew we had so much in common?!?!?!? I buy clothes that prove my boobs are bigger than boss’ too!!!!!!!!
Sad but true. (the bigger boobs part, not the buying clothes to accentuate that unfortunate fact).
Creasy: That’s what everybody keeps saying. “I’m just a professional”. Everybody keeps saying that to me. “I’m just a professional”, “I’m just a professional”. I’m getting sick and tired of hearing that.
-Man on Fire, 2004
Yes wardrobe is a feminist issue. Social control works on many levels, but none more than the outward surfaces.
This is like asking if skin color is a race issue.
I am most encouraged that the generations coming up are looking, acting, and thinking more and more alike on gender issues, but most discouraged that they are more and more divisive on class issues.
I think going forward wardrobe will be less a man/woman issue than a rich/poor issue, and “professionals” both male and female will probably be dressing in similar styles and modes.
I have heard that the height of women’s heels are indirectly related to her income level. The higher the pumps, the lower the salary.
It was true for me. At 23 I had an awesome, expensive, dry clean only wardrobe, high heels, and made less than 13K per year in a job that had great responsibility. Sound ridiculous? It was.
The thing that made me leave, was seeing the women with 20 years of experience on me still wearing those clothes and making 40-50K per year. I realized you couldn’t win in the long run and I had no intention of settling for 40K per year at that point in my life.
So I moved to a job that is results focused in a town that was not image obsessed (Seattle) and I have made 12 times that amount wearing jeans and what I call “snappy” casual clothes, dressing to what is appropriate for the situation.
Clothes always favor the men. I call it the “uniform”: the light tan dockers and the blue button down shirt. We make games up at conferences to spot the blue shirts and see how many new shades they have come up with this year. Women wear them & look frumpy and out of place. It sucks.
I know my wardrobe is a feminist and class issue, because trying to enter the work force (or rather, buying my first real suit as I start law school and start interning) – I’m absolutely clueless on how to dress myself. I feel lost in a wood of media images and divergent professional expectations.
When my brother needed a suit for an internship a couple years ago, we went to Men’s Warehouse, spent a little over $100 and he looks professional.
As for me, I looked a little scruffy at my undergrad internship in poorly fitting hand-me down business casual, but it worked well enough.
I’ve had trouble even starting to buy a suit though because while I know that what “business women” wear in TV shows is probably inappropriate (so tight, low cut, and short) …I’ve completely lacked role models on how a suit should fit a woman. I know the magazines don’t show things conservative enough. I’m completely at a loss as to how a suit should fit me and finding the line between age-appropriate/professional/frumpy. My professors don’t wear them, no woman in my family needed to, and I can’t afford the stores where salespeople know what they’re talking about.
So whereas my brother got a suit in about an hour, I scoured the malls for weeks, and eventually found something for around $150 at Anne Taylor on Black Friday – but why should it be this difficult? I’m 5’4” and 120 lbs, this was the only one that came close to fitting. This suit was essentially my only option – and I live in a major market!
It just makes me wonder why there is so little demand for reasonably priced basic suits for women. Or is it more a case of demand being ignored?
Anyways, if any of you lovely women with experience in dressing yourself professionally have any handy tips or resources (guides? websites?) you could point me towards on figuring out the basics (color of hose? appropriate shirts to wear underneath? proper shoes?), I’d really appreciate it.
It rarely crosses my mind that technically I grew up/am white trash and lower class – but in trying to sort out business wear, I can’t forget it.
You’re right about how professional women are portrayed on tv–the fashion magazines are completely irrelevant to real working lives, too: I don’t know many work environments where a woman could wear a lacy camisole beneath a jacket.
You know what? There’s much to be said for upper-reach consignment stores, taking things you buy on the cheap to a tailor, and having a basic uniform. Suits are great because they’re uniforms you can accessorize to please your own mood in the morning. That said: Eddie Bauer petites. Buy off season and basic, so it d. Some suiting from EB is even machine washable. As a five foot three woman whose male students are too easily distracted, I find a basic suit with jacket and interchangeable pants/skirt with Danskos and a few shirts gets me through the week and doesn’t take up much thought.