Can someone be too fat to qualify for a job? That’s the case being made against Dr. Regina Benjamin, the nominee for surgeon general.
Is being thin a bona fide occupational qualification for surgeon general? Is it a bona fide occupational qualification for any job?
We talk about racism, sexism, and ageism in the workforce and in our personal lives. Penelope Trunk writes about lookism. What do you think? Does America discrimate against obese workers? Have you experienced this? Do you make fun of the office fatty? Is it okay to judge people based on their size? Or do you feel that we should we treat size in the same way that we treat race, age, and ability?
Give me your thick & juicy thoughts, please.
{ 70 comments… read them below or add one }
Here’s my two cents on the subject:
I do think America discriminates against Obese workers
Not okay at all
Wakeup People! Not everyone is a size 2! Deal with it,
BTW>>> I am not a size 2, Nor will I ever be, I am proud of myself, I try to eat a balanced diet, and Get routine exercise.
People need to worry more about themselves, and their own jobs. Consider yourself extremely lucky that you have a job.
I can see both sides, but end up defaulting to the position that yeah, “looks” and “size” should be treated in much the same way that we treat race, gender, sexual orientation, age, ability, etc.
Of course, there are valid exceptions. Obese people can’t join the Army; if you’re going to go fight wars, you need to be lean and athletic. People with disabilities, who can be wonderful employees in a variety of jobs, can’t join the Army either. Neither can gay people, although that’s just stupid (and another thread entirely).
For me, it comes down to “can you do the job” and “is it possible that the fat person might actually be the best person for the job.” If the answer to either is yes, then not hiring someone because of their appearance and/or weight is discriminatory. The Surgeon General post is an interesting case study, since part of the job might be “role model for others.” And yet, if the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA, http://www.naafaonline.com/dev2/) is correct, and you can achieve health at any size, perhaps she could role model THAT.
I wonder if the case of Dr. Benjamin isn’t more racist and sexist than looksist, however. Dr. Everett Koop wasn’t exactly skinny, just sayin’.
Thin isn’t the same as healthy. I don’t need the surgeon general to be my role model for weight loss; I need her to set policy that optimizes the health of most Americans no matter what size they are.
I agree with the 3 previous commenters–those are great comments! I especially agree about the complicated, messed-up intertwining of “health,” prejudice, and sexism where weight is concerned. Also, Mary Ellen, I agree that the function of the surgeon general being “my role model for weight loss” is icky. I guess in that case you should have two “surgeon generals,” a man and a woman who have appeared in Hydroxycut commercials, and all our health care problems will be solved. And they wouldn’t need to have any actual knowledge or expertise either, which is much easier. Win-win!
I’m going to go anti traditional HR here. In a perfect world, we would hire the most qualified candidate for all positions regardless of any biases. The world is not perfect. We are in business to make money.
The reality is that obseity is not a protected class. If there is a good business reason that a candidate needs to look a certain way for a position (i.e. outside sales or direct marketing to consumers), you can disqualify a candidate for being overweight. Keep it about the business need and do not allow for candidates from protected classes to be discriminated against.
P.S. – I will never be a size 2 either, but I think that I wear a size 10 pretty well!
Wasn’t William Bennett, the former Drug Czar, a chain smoker? I’m just sayin’ . . . .
Oi. Didn’t someone say during the presidential campaign that Obama might be too skinny to be president because a fit, thin person can’t possibly understand what it’s like to be an average american? Seriously, make up your minds. I think the media is making s*&t up again to fill space.
I am all in favour of physical requirements to get the job if there are physical requirements to do the job. I support minimum standards for firefighters, for example, even if they tend to make it harder for the smaller among us to become firefighters.
However, in this case, I don’t think that applies. The only halfway compelling weight-based argument against Dr. Benjamin is that the Surgeon General should model healthy living – but since there is no information on her lifestyle (and physical appearance is not a reliable indicator of lifestyle) then really that argument is about body image, not health. And being overly concerned about body image is precisely the opposite of modelling a healthy lifestyle.
What I am interested in seeing is a study on what the average North American thinks a “healthy” person is supposed to look like. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s an almost cartoonish exaggeration of what a healthy person actually looks like.
As a manager, I rather relish the idea of my competitors not hiring awesome people because they have a little chub.
Me? I weigh 20 pounds more than I did 4 years ago — I gained it all in grad school and haven’t shed it since I had a baby right after despite regular exercise and a pretty good diet. I’m also light years better at my job now.
Laurie,
Hot topic – but probably just because I’m a little heavier than I should be and it’s hard for us big people to keep ourselves cool…we can all say how wrong it is, and it shouldn’t happen, but it does and it’s real. If I’m a business owner, who would I rather represent my company – someone who looks like they can’t step away from the buffet or someone who looks like they care about how they represent themselves.
I’m not saying the thinner person is better – I’m saying perception is reality all to often when it comes to our in exact science of hiring.
Mary Ellen upthread said it well and succinctly: “Thin isn’t the same as healthy. I don’t need the surgeon general to be my role model for weight loss; I need her to set policy that optimizes the health of most Americans no matter what size they are.”
For more about Health At Every Size (HAES), start with Linda Bacon’s HAES Manifesto, and other resources at her website.
You know what? As a woman in tech/engineering, I found it much harder to be taken seriously when I was skinny.
Sorry – it’s not OK to discriminate against fat people, regardless of whether they are a “protected group” or not. Fat and skill are not mutually exclusive.
I weight too much. It doesn’t make me dumber, less of a contributor, or any less productive – except at those stupid teambuilding olympic things. I am also not a prime candidate for one of those survivalist meeting camps.
On the other hand, I am exercising to keep my risk factors under control, but my life insurance premiums are more than some folks.
I am also fully aware it affects some people’s perception of me.
meh..the word that comes to mind starts with an f…
Maybe a dumb question (actually maybe a lot of dumb questions), but… if I own a business and I am hiring people to work for me…don’t I have the right to be discriminating? Don’t I have the right to hire the best person possible for the job? So when I get a pool of applicants with equally strong educational and work experiences, cannot I not then begin to look at personal strengths and weaknesses (which I sometimes think are a better reflection of character) such as weight, smoking history, personality? Or is that a no-no? Where do we draw the line on discrimination and can’t discrimination be a good thing sometimes? I want to hire the best person possible and, to me, characteristics such as obesity and smoking, can say a lot about a person. Willing to give them a chance but if up against someone with equal talent but in great shape and a non-smoker, guess who I’d rather hire? Am I a bad person?
It is very unfortunate, but “lookism” does effect whether or not a person receives a job. As much as companies and people would like to deny and sweep this under the rug, it does happen. The ONLY time I can see that a person’s weight should ever come into play is if it is going to effect the person’s performance in their job. For example, if a person is applying for a job that is going to require manual labor and they cannot perform the necessary tasks, because of their weight then it’s understandable that the person does not get the job. And in this case it is not discrimination, it is just a matter of hiring the person who will be best for the job.
In the case of Dr. Benjamin her weight has nothing to do with her qualifications and should have nothing to do with whether or not she gets tapped as the new Surgeon General. If it has anything to do with trying to get a message across to America about anti-obesity then let’s think about Ol’ Barack here. Our country is anti-smoking and Obama is a smoker, giving young kids the impression that it’s okay to smoke. C’mon people let’s be consistent here.
This may be a different perspective, but I find it interesting. When I’m working in Wisconsin (US Home Office) I’m of average build – possible on the skinny side (even though my company’s wellness assessment tells me I’m overweight – not obese levels 1, 2 or 3). However, when I fly over to Ireland to work on a project – I have image issues. I am the quintessential fat American on the project team. So weight, as with everything else in life, is relative.
Unfortunately we have this need to classify things. Truth is there are varying degrees of everything. People are people, black or white, fat or skinny, christian or muslim, abled or disabled. Everybody else is different than you (not just certain groups of people). Get over it.
Seriously? Regina Benjamin fat? People who live in glass houses . . .
Is it that companies are discriminating against overweight people because they might cost the company more in health benefits or be out more due to health issues or are they discriminating because the other candidate is the thin and more attractive?
I’m not thin; I was for about three month around my junior high school prom 12 years ago. Since then I’ve learned to cook and thus became what I jokingly refer to as “my fatty self”. That said, I’m happy and thus able to concentrate on my career rather than my self image. If the public is turning away qualified candidates because they are overweight, send them my way.
I’ve been a XXL-sized person for most of my life (partly as a result of childhood medical treatments). I’m sure my weight/size has colored some people’s perceptions of me.
I was both the oldest and the largest employee (I think) at my last job, and in an honest analysis those factors probably painted a big ol’ bullseye on my back when it was time to make up the list of folks to be laid off.
From a recruiting standpoint, the questions about the face we as candidates put forth should be: Is this person engaging? Confident? Presenting a professional appearance? Those are valid questions at ANY size.
I love today’s provocative post by Laurie — and it begs another question I’ll be attacking soon. Corporations don’t just hate people they consider fat. Studies also show they hate short people. Did you know that CEO’s are overwhelmingly taller than the general population? Napoleon would have never gotten in the door. All sorts of stats on this subject. How fair is that? And what the heck can you do about it, other than wear stupidly high heels or stand on the balls of your feet constantly or sneak something onto your chair during a meeting to not be seen as the smallest person in the room?
@Michael VanDervort “I am also not a prime candidate for one of those survivalist meeting camps.”
Ironically, we are prime candidates for actual survival.
Efficiently storing excess calories as body fat isn’t a character flaw. It’s an *extremely* successful adaptation to fluctuations in food supply. It’s easy to forget that we are all descended from the people who could actually survive famines. For most of human history — and even in most parts of the world now — a “good” metabolism has meant a slow one.
What’s worse…Not hiring someone because they are overweight or not promoting someone because their not attractive enough?
I don’t know. Both actions are despicable.
I think everyone in the US discriminates against obese people…whether consciously or unconsciously. I do sort of have a problem with the person at the top of our country telling me what’s best for my health if they are in good physical health. You know parenting is all about “modeling” behavior these days…the days of do as I say not as I do are long gone. That being said. I don’t think anyone should not be considered *if* the are the *best* qualified person for the job.
However, I refuse to take yoga or exercise classes from those who are out of shape…I just don’t see how they’ll be able to lead the kind of intense work out I’m there for.
Call me crazy but I don’t think outside sales or direct marketing is a valid reason to not hire the chubby candidate. That is an image issue and has nothing to do with whether a person can do the job. I don’t think I’ve ever bought anything from anybody just because I thought they were hot. As for surgeon general, would this question come up if he had picked a man??? I’ll bet my fat a$$ it wouldn’t.
Police, firefighters, EMS, military or any other occupation where physical strength, agility, and general physical health affects the standards of performance should be held to a predetermined physical exam that is provided by a doctor, not by me trying to sneak a peak at the candidates’ pants size.
@Daisycutter I wouldn’t think you’re a “bad” person for thinking that. Just severely misguided in the criteria you’re using to judge people’s character. Again, as a hiring manager, I would be delighted to know that weight was a consideration in my competitor’s hiring decisions.
@Leanne How do you know the person teaching the class is “out of shape” though? I mean, can they not do what they are teaching you to do? Or are you making that call based on “extra” body fat? That’s not the same as “out of shape.”
I’m fat….and come to think of it I am a terrible worker too. Hmmmm
I once interviewed for a job and when being told I didn’t get it, the interviewer said he was very impressed with me and that “by the end of the interview, I had almost forgotten about your size”. That was more than 25 years ago, but that attitude hasn’t changed very much, even though it may be less blatant now. People unfortunately do equate size with character, which has always baffled me. In my life I’ve been fat, thin and everwhere in between. But my character has never changed. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am treated entirely differently when I’m thin. Strange.
For those of you that are tempted to judge a fat person as having a lesser character than a thin person, think about this: Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, Eddie Gein, the Unabomber — all thin. Santa Claus – fat!
“As for surgeon general, would this question come up if he had picked a man??? I’ll bet my fat a$$ it wouldn’t.”
Damn straight.
I think weight-ism is a very real issue in our society, but this isn’t weightism. It’s sexism, plain and simple.
Mary Ellen,
Let me clarify, if the best person for the job was fat and smoked two packs a day, I would hire them hands down, but if it came between two people, one who was fat and smoked and another who was in good shape and a non-smoker, I would hire the latter. As far as this being misguided criteria, I would beg to differ. Someone who takes pride in their health and treats their body like the temple that it is, says a lot to me. In fact, I think its respectful, noble, requires self-discipline, and a lot of hard work…all traits I want in an employee.
@DaisyCutter … another view of the situation: in the ABC News article that Laurie links to, the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey states that data such as blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugar are much more reliable indicators of health than body size. In other words, the “overweight” candidate might eat better and get more exercise than the thin candidate, who might just be “blessed” (or cursed, according to Mary Ellen’s philosophy) with a speedy metabolism. My own doctor has backed this up, saying that the patients with the worst lifestyles are almost always the most height-weight proportionate. His theory is that the people who’ve never had to watch their diet or exercise regularly to meet society’s beauty standards are often the worst offenders – whereas people like me – who can easily gain weight on a diet of cheeseburgers and no workouts, tend to do a better job overall of “looking after ourselves.” Of course, that fit and trim candidate could be very athletic is his/her off-hours – but there’s certainly no guarantee. Unless you’re going to do a health screening as a part of your selection process, you might be using faulty data to come to an illogical conclusion.
Crack heads are thin
Another good what you say you do and what you really do HR question!
On a daily basis I see and interact with many associates that would be classified as extemely obese and you know what? They have friends at work, they are smiling and engaged and I have not once had any associate complaints about people harrassing them about their weight.
So why is that? While I don’t think it isn’t happening I believe that the people they work with everyday have come to know them as a good worker or person and have looked beyond the physical. If anything, I think most people are concerned about the person’s health than their looks.
Just like the other areas of race, gender, ability, discrimiation will never stop happening until each one of us makes the choice to look beyond what we “see” and embrace the person that we have come to know.
Here are my two cents, not worth much in today’s economy. It all depends on the job and the location. It is a complicated issue. Fat is not a protected class, but you could argue health issues that cause obesity fall under ADA protection, in which case you would have to show a BFOQ to discriminate. Title VII does not bar appearance standards if they are non discriminatory i.e. you don’t have to hire ugly television anchors as long as you are not judging beauty by blond hair, blue eyes, fair skin… You do need to be careful of state regulation, DC for one. And depending on the job I can see the value. I hate to disagree with @teresahrgirl but I am afraid she is in the minority – sex sells, always has, likely always will.
@teresahgirl – re: “I don’t think I’ve ever bought anything from anybody just because I thought they were hot”, that’s fair, but lots of other people do.
That’s why some (even non-strip-) bars require headshots with their bartender applications. I don’t think there’s any denying that physical attractiveness is an advantage, especially in sales (for men and women – many studies have shown that tall men make more money than their shorter colleagues). Given that the surgeon general has to “sell” people on policy, etc., does it make sense to hire the person with the best chance at doing so? As Leane says above, some people won’t hire a personal trainer or yoga instructor who doesn’t look “fit”, will people take advice from the supposed ultimate authority on health if he or she doesn’t also look healthy?
I know this is a bit of a reversal on my last post, but it’s fun to look at both sides
BTW ya’ll should totally be watching Drop Dead Diva on Lifetime (or Oxygen or We i can’t remember right now).
Lots of great points here!
My personal experience with this is very recent – I was worried I would not be seriously considered for this HR position that has a very strong company wellness program component (as I am a “curvy” aka slightly heavier than average – depends who you ask). But I did get the position! I am so curious if it was discussed behind closed doors, such as “will employees take her seriously promoting a nutrition education program?” or “will employees find her relate-able because of her size?” I guess I will never know… but I am drinking the (sugar-free) KoolAid here, joining the company Weight Watchers program and visibly eating salads for lunch even though Wendy’s is right around the corner and I can smell the greasy goodness….
It’s been difficult to watch my daughter’s struggle to find her first job. She is obese because of a medical condition WHICH DOES NOT AFFECT HER ABILITY TO DO ANYTHING EXCEPT POSSIBILY GET PREGNANT. She eats healthy, exercises regularly, dresses modestly and businesslike, and takes pride in herself. She is friendly, engaging, smart, has a wonderful work ethic, is honest, and the most caring individual I know. Yet, people look at her and see fat and lazy. I have to wonder when we are going to start judging people for their character and not their body proportions. It’s a sad society in which we live.
I think that Dr. Benjamin’s qualifications and experience make her a fantastic choice for this position.
Wouldn’t it be great if all positions could be filled based on who’s the best qualified? Employers who choose less qualified candidates based on their looks are really only shortchanging themselves.
The best sales rep I ever worked with has always been quite overweight – but he is extremely bright, quick on his feet, and very likeable. His weight never affected his sales ability – he was always a top earner and leader and eventually led the company we both worked for.
Daisycutter – I know sort of what you mean. I normally don’t consider “looks” to be important unless part of the job. (i.e. actor)
However, here is NJ we have two candidates running for governor; neither of which I like or want to vote for. However, the one is more than a little overweight. I would call him obese. (google image Chris Christie to see that double chin and wide girth).
The other day when seeing a TV campaign ad for him I noticed his weight and thought to myself: “gee, if he cannot even take care of his own health how is going to be able to take care of the state?
I’m not saying that will be my determining factor come November – but his weight did make me think less of him.
@Daisycutter- I definitely understand what you’re saying about someone who takes pride in their health being a positive. If you can know for sure that someone has that kind of self discipline and hard work ethic, it would definitely be a plus. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Red Seven’s doctor and say that I don’t think it’s really possible to tell these things about someone just by looking at them and speaking to them in an interview.
I, for example, am a size 4. I eat pizza three or four times a week and get winded going up and down stairs. My roommate is a size 12 and she goes to the gym 4 times a week and eats mostly, from what I can tell, grass and leaves and all kind of healthy things. Like Red Seven said, I have never had to watch my weight and pretty much have always eaten whatever I wanted. There’s no doubt in my mind that my roommate has MUCH more self discipline than me, but I just have good genes. I know that in an interview I am likely to be given an advantage over bigger people and while I guess I can’t complain, I also don’t think it’s fair. Basing any bias or opinion of someone solely on their physical size can absolutely be misleading.
OK…..I discriminate against obese people. I can. Its legal. I’m not talking about people who are a few pounds over fighting weight or are shapely.
But when people get to the obese level (medically) and moreso clinically obese. I discriminate. I don’t believe in most cases (although there are exceptions) it is down to genetic disposition blah blah blah. I believe it is down to lifestyle choices and behaviour.
I’m ok with this, although I expect many people who read this will not be. And it is probably something that I need to come to terms with myself at some point when I have enough time to breathe.
But lets not get all traditionally HR and up our own backsides about this. We all discrimate on some basis or another. The person with a specific accent, the person with the same name as the kid who kicked us under the table at school.
A few days ago on this blog everyone was pro drug testing and for sacking anyone who tested positive regardless of their performance. Is that not discrimination? Would it make it better if I had random BMI tests and if you didn’t pass it you got fired?
So I’m open and honest about my discriminatory behaviour. Are you all open about yours?
@Daisycutter I get your point, but as other people have pointed out, being *thin* doesn’t tell you anything about someone’s lifestyle habits or self-discipline. That’s where I think you’re off track. If you want to hire people who are athletic and into health food, etc, just ask about that in the interview. Don’t make assumptions based on their size.
I was the “fat kid” going through high school (yea– Fat Mat– blah-blah-blah) — and people are cruel, judgemental assholes, through-and-through!!! Every last one of them!! (except if they’re overweight, than you understand)
So to think, for one minute, that in this supposed PC inflicted world, that everyone in the room is NOT saying “God that person’s F*ckin’ FAT!!! How can they live with themselves!! I will NEVER be that blubbering retards friend!!”… than you’re as delusional as W sayin’ “Mission Accomplished”.
I lost ALOT of weight in the army (101st Airborne will do that to you) and to this day– if I get a look from a VGL girl/woman– I still look behind me to see who’s she’s really looking at!!
@Diane
“Wouldn’t it be great if all positions could be filled based on who’s the best qualified? Employers who choose less qualified candidates based on their looks are really only shortchanging themselves.”
Well said!
I think the mall near me may descriminate against skinny people, they’ve never had a thin Santa.
As long as the person is able to do the job, there should be NO requirements about size or looks.
But we are all guilty of stereotyping to one degree or another, and I think that’s the foundation of the problem. The assumption is that fat people are too lazy to do anything about thier size, too dumb to eat right, or just don’t care enough about the image they project. If any of those things are true, then certainly we have grounds for not hiring them.
@vikki Bingo!
Whenever we hire someone, we HAVE to discriminate in some way, otherwise we’d just hire people at random. But it’s the stereotyping that’ll kill you. Some of it’s illegal, the rest of it’s just dumb.
Fat is often the result of many little choices. But sometimes it’s just genetic. I certainly hope that Title VII doesn’t grow fatter to include those who suffer from this condition. My hope is that as mean spirited many of us can be, that there are as many if not more of us who are like Jack Black in the movie Shallow Hal–seeing beyond size and shape and recognizing true contributions.
The fact that this discussion is occurring on a national level suggests we have no clue how to select professionals. before selecting a candidate, we must have a good understanding about KSA’a necessary for the job and how to best predict those among our candidates.
It does not matter that obesity is not a protected class. the whole reason we have protected classes is because of the rampant douchbaggery that was occurring before big brother told us to behave ourselves. I don’t want to worry about another protected class, so how about we stop making personnel decisions on irrelevant criteria?
Oh, and just for the record, Mimi was hot!
It seems to me there are two issues here; discrimination against obesity in employment and whether a canidate for Surgeon General can, at in an Administration that has put a HUGE emphasis on wellness, be seen as being – well, less than healthy.
On the former, human beings discriminate against other human beings all the time on any number of fronts. Some have been flagged as “protected” classes, and if you can prove that that was the basis you have recourse. If, however, you are fat, ugly, tall, short, acneed, greasy-haired, or happen to talk with an accent that the interviewer finds unintelligent – well, you aren’t protected. Is that fair? No. Is that life – yep. We all try hard not to let those physical differences make a difference – but if you’re human, all you can do is make the effort to behave as though they don’t matter.
On the latter – well, I think if you’re going to push wellness and healthy lifestyles, you better have a Surgeon General that can’t be condemned for not living up to that (think if C. Everett Koop was a smoker). I have no idea if Dr. Benjamin meets that standard. Frankly, Surgeon General is not an appointment that I follow with much interest…
Red, Katie, & Mary Ellen,
Excellent rebuttals. Skinny people could be unhealthy as well. I get it. But I don’t know that and I have no solid way of finding that out. So I discriminate on the obvious because its the next best thing to genetic testing. Weight, nose piercings, the smell of smoke, and white athletic socks are all up for grabs.
However, if I sense talent, intellect, the ability to get along with others, and a sense of humor during an interview, I can walk out of a room with no recall of what the candidate looked like because I’m smitten by the virtues that truly and inwardly rapture me. Call it the Beauty and the Beast syndrome if you like. I call it being human-and being human, with all its travails and discriminating pet peeves, is still still better than a politically correct robot.
Yea this happens all the time and its unfair and hurtfull. We all have to work to support ourselves. I am a Over weight person and I have had interviews where after it was done I got the feeling that the person was just going threw the motions just to get me out of there. I Think Weight should only come into questions when it has to do with the ability to do the job such as Fire men police etc these jobs have phisical reqirements where weight have to be considered, But I would think the applicant would know his or her limitations before considering a job.
You know there are jobs that physical size does matter. I don’t think I’d hire a skinny 5ft 98lb guy to be the bouncer at a biker bar. An intellectual job that doesn’t really require physical labor shouldn’t have such restrictions. I can understand that the perception may be that an authority/expert in the field of health should maintain better health but there are a slew of obese doctors and nurses working at hospitals and clinics across the country. My own doctor is a bit overweight but it hasn’t impaired his ability as a physician.
Overweight does not equal unhealthy. Overweight does not equal unhealthy. Overweight does not equal unhealthy.
The most unhealthy I’ve ever been was the six month period after my brother was killed–when I stopped eating, drank about a fifth of Wild Turkey and smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. I was 5’9″ and weighed 112 pounds.
It’s a wonder I survived, but I looked great in clothes!
She’s strong and active, takes good care of herself, enjoys the hell out of life, and one of the healthiest people I know.She also weighs about 220 pounds.
And John, one of the most dangerous bouncers I’ve ever known was an Australian skinhead who worked the door at the Irish pub where I tended bar. He was about 6 feet and maybe 165 lbs. soaking wet, 10 pounds of it combat boots. He never charged for his services–he was always just hopeful that he’d eventually get to kill someone with his bare hands. He came close quite a few times.
Our perceptions are merely in our own heads. They are rarely accurate.
Oops, I meant to lead with “My friend Jackie:” when writing the paragraph about about my overweight friend.
Sorry to come across so cranky. Stereotypes/assumptions get up my nose; it’s one of my hot buttons. I’m working on it.
Things.
1. I’m in Chicago.
2. Rumor has it that I’ve had a few martinis.
3. In this argument, I side with those who think that weight is not a BFOQ.
4. Science is constantly rewritten and (maybe this is crazy) obesity is becoming an evolutionary advantage in our society.
The comments are all brilliant but they are very Americanized. I wonder if I have any European or African readers with a different perspective?
i can’t read through all these comments. there are just way too many… but i wonder… what is the average BMI of the folks leaving comments? you struck a nerve!
being thin is not a BFOQ for any job… but i agree with sackett that while a thin person isn’t better, there’s the perception/reality that thin is better and more beautiful. and i will fully admit… i’ve got a total bias for athletes when it comes to recruiting. athletes demonstrate to me a level of rigor, dedication, intensity and focus that i don’t believe i see as frequently in non-athletes. and maybe yes, being athletic also translates into being thin… except when we’re talking sumo and linebackers.
and thanks to @theHRD for being honest. that takes some balls to admit but of course it’s being done under a pseudo handle or whatever you want to call it. and by the way, i’ve been called a fattist before. i won’t deny that one.
I think the BMI is bullshit by the way. Right now, my BMI is 24.2.
SUCK IT BMI.
@Laurie – Interesting you raise the European perspective as I was thinking about this on the commute in this morning. As you know I am a European (and proud!). But, PLEASE no-one see this as an attack on the US, this is just a view from outside.
I was amazed at the number of people that took a “obese is not unhealthy” line (and I choose the word obese here advisedly). Sorry to blow the line on this, but obesity is linked to a whole range of medical conditions from osteo issues, diabetes, high blood pressure to gall bladder problems. The list goes on. Being obese has significant long term health risks. Read the medical evidence.
The simple fact is, in MOST cases, obesity is caused by taking more calories into the body than are expended. Full Stop. However, when obesity hits a critical mass within a culture – attitudes towards it change. It becomes more acceptable and the reasoning people use to explain their weight changes. This is called cognitive dissonance.
In the US, I’m led to believe through research that two thirds of adults are overweight. So of course, views are likely to be more tolerant and accepting. The NPD study that I’ve looked at (and this may mean more to you than me) showed that in 1985, 55% of people questioned in the US agreed with the statement, “People who are not overweight are more attractive”. In 2005 the figure was 24%. Now that could be because peoples attitudes are becoming more “right on” or it could be because more Americans are overweight.
Many companies in my country are introducing programmes to help people to lose weight, to assess their health and wellbeing and support them. Because we see this as a problem. Not as OK (and I should say this includes people with weight issues regardless of which end of the scale they sit). This includes advice on diet, exercise and lifestyle choices as well as providing healthy balanced meals for the workforce. This is in the same way that we intervened to support people to stop smoking. And I personally see these things as comparable in many ways.
Genetic predisposition does play a part, sure, there will always have been a group of people predisposed to weight problems. But the genetic make up of a country such as the US, does not change as quickly as the increase in obesity there. So other factors MUST be at play.
I really think we need to wake up and challenge attitudes on this quick and hard for the sake of future generations who norm their behaviour based on ours.
@Jessica Lee – I write under a pseudonym because my blog often touches upon my work. I have an email address on there where people can contact me if they want to continue this debate on a personal level. Debate is good, group think is bad!
Fat, skinny…doesn’t matter if you’re qualified to do the job and your weight, height (or whatever) does not affect your ability to carry out the responsibilities in a job description. That said, there’s always bias that’s factored in and determines who gets the job and who doesn’t. Yes, obesity IS unhealthy…your heart works harder and harder until it goes POOF. Regardless, I think all interviews should be conducted on the phone right up until an offer is made. This way there are no biases to affect the selection process.
Totally a random thought – but it really pisses me off when people get all into running a marathon. Just shut up and run, no need to take 95 photos of the event and tell everyone you know you are so tired from training? Really – who is holding the gun to your head making you run 25 miles or whatever it is. PLUS, Im pretty sure some “healthy” marathon runners end up having heart attacks during this ridiculous race. Click on my name to see one such incident.
It sounds to me like all of you fatties need to get out from behind your desks and hit the gym. With HR now heading up so many wellness programs, shouldn’t we follow what we preach?
Okay, I just have to jump in. I have been overweight (not obese but overweight) and I have been thin through much struggle and decisions to change my life. So the first thing I’ll say is that I know many people – I’m related to some by marriage – that say they eat healthy and do not know why they cannot lose weight. To that I will provide my Husband’s response, “most of us don’t really know what eating healthy is.” I do not know many people who are willing to eat the way I do, but I am not a naturally thin person so this is how I have to eat to stay healthy and I haven’t eaten a potato chip in over three years. I changed how I eat because of cholesterol and other health issues, the 30 lb. weight loss was a happy side effect.
First, not all thin people are healthy, in fact, a lot of them are not (a friend went on a crash diet to compete in the “Fit Life” contest, got down to the point she no longer menstrated – newsflash media being thin the the point you don’t have a period is NOT healthy for a woman).
Second, not all overweight people are unhealthy but I do not think it is possible to be obese and healthy becuse there is a difference between being overweight and obesity.
Third, being overweight is normalizing in this country and that is not good for any of us.
I think the question is, when we’re fighting the normalizing of excess weight and trying not to have the first generation of kids that do not live longer than their parents, is it okay to have the Top Doc be someone who through her appearance seems to suggest that carrying extra weight is not only okay but healthy? Oh, and I don’t think we’d be having this debate if the candidate was a man.
Laurie, I agree that BMI is bunk – it does not account for frame size or muscle mass – my sister and I can weight the same and look A LOT different because I have bigger bones and carry more muscle. Second, I am curious about why you think that, “obesity is becoming an evolutionary advantage in our society.” How so?
In the spirit of Spock – live long & prosper everyone
I wonder if the fat issue makes more of a difference in some places than others. I live in Michigan and there are a lot of chubbos here. Now, I’m kind of chubby, but not like Mimi up there. I can shop in regular stores and all. But I’m about 3 sizes bigger than before I had my daughters. And my career is going better than ever. I never felt like anyone thought I was too fat to write a marketing plan. But again, I live in Michigan. And for Michigan, I’m kind of average.
Now if I moved to California, would it be different? Maybe. But I don’t know. When I was younger and thinner and cuter I don’t think I was taken as seriously as I am now. Personally, I think if you’re smart and confident, then as long as your clean, neatly dressed, and well-groomed, you can succeed.
These are all such compelling comments. I usually answer them individually, but there’s too much. I’ll say this: it’s okay to start telling people to mind their own business in society. I’m fat. I’m thin. I’m white. I’m black. I’m latino. I’m short. I’m an atheist. I’m a jew. I’m disabled. So the f@&k what. Mind your own business and grow up. Focus on what matters: my results. If you don’t want to hire my fat ass, I don’t want to work for your company. Your loss, asshole.
Yes, way too many comments to read them all. Many valid points on both sides.
BMI = 38, down from 42 after baby #2.
@Size 4…You are the reason this discussion is necessary. I work two jobs and chase two children under 4. I am anything but a lazy fatty.
I get good nutrition (pass the doughnut for the yogurt, etc.) and have an active life (see above) but the weight does not come off unless I run 2 miles a day. The only way the weight comes off is if I make time for myself to run 2 miles a day, which I love. Yes, a fat person who loves to run. But I rarely get the time.
Most of it is lifestyle, yes, but there is a genetic component. Anyone who doesn’t believe it can live my life with my body for a month to prove me wrong.
FYI, I discriminate against smokers and stupid people. Sue me.
@Laurie— you’re funny when you’re angry. lmao
Daisycutter…
“Maybe a dumb question (actually maybe a lot of dumb questions), but… if I own a business and I am hiring people to work for me…don’t I have the right to be discriminating?”
I think the fair questions to ask about anything job related is:
“If I had kids, is this an action that I would want to teach them? Is this something I would be proud of? I this something I want to attach my real name to?”
I think for this question, I think most people would be embarrassed to say, “My name is John Smith, and I discriminate against this group of people.”
Would you want to teach your kid how to discriminate against people? Sure, for some jobs, good looks count, but for the work that most of us do, I speak to most of my clients over the phone. If I interview with someone in person, is it important that I have good communication, or is it important that I look good in a suit on the phone?